E-mail: oconnor@northjersey.com

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:12 am

O'Connor: Clemens' tale of the tape only raises more questions

http://www.northjersey.com/sports/yankees/OConnor_Clemens_tale_of_the_tape_only_raises_more_questions.html?c=y&page=1

Tuesday, January 8, 2008
IAN O'CONNOR
COLUMNIST
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Roger Clemens is losing the biggest game of his life. The more he talks, the more he falls behind. The more he pleads his case to the American public, the more it sounds like he has no case to plead.

At a news conference in Houston on Monday, the day after he made body language experts dizzy with his twitchy performance in the “60 Minutes” lights, Clemens played the tape of a phone
conversation he had with Brian McNamee, his former trainer and Boy Friday who accused Rocket of fueling up on steroids and human growth hormone and testosterone in George Mitchell’s report.

The 17-minute tape wasn’t notable for what was said between the men, but for what was not.

Without knowing he was being recorded, McNamee never said he lied to investigators when he told them he injected performance enhancing drugs into Clemens’ rump. He never said he realized he was actually pumping Clemens with lidocaine and vitamin B-12, as Rocket swears.

“Tell me what you want me to do,” Mc-Namee asked his former client, repeating that thought some 20 times.

Clemens never grew angry on the tape. He somebody to tell the truth,” he said. He didn’t identify that somebody.
He didn’t offer details on the truth.

Clemens only got good and nasty in the question-and-answer session after the playing of the tape, when he was back in his environment,
back in front of the same reporters who had gathered around his locker for so many
years. At that moment, all the sneering, seething Rocket needed was some eye black.

But as he barked at his questioners from his hometown podium, looking like King Kong ready to break through the theater chains (or maybe like a raging Yankees pitcher ready to throw the jagged remains of a shattered World Series bat at a star Mets catcher), Clemens couldn’t stare down the part of the tape that made him look worse than his nervous exchange with Mike Wallace. A part of the tape that doesn’t exist.

Every right-minded listener had to be thinking the same thing: How could arguably the greatest big league pitcher of all time share a conversation with the man who’s tearing down his entire legacy
and not express unbridled outrage over the supposed lies that have called Clemens’ 354 victories and seven Cy Young Awards into doubt?

Clemens didn’t say, “Mac, why would you ever tell Mitchell and the feds you injected me with banned substances when you knew it was lidocaine and B-12 in those needles?”

Clemens didn’t say, “Mac, why did you implicate me in this scandal when you know I’ve never used steroids or human growth hormone or testosterone in your presence?”

Maybe Clemens was afraid of the answers that would’ve ended up on that tape. Maybe he knew he had to be creative with his own line of questioning.

“For the life of me I’m trying to find out why you would tell guys that I used steroids,” Clemens told McNamee.

Why McNamee would tell guys the pitcher used steroids. “I understand that,” McNamee responded.

The defrocked trainer didn’t say, “Sorry, Rog. My fault. I know you never used steroids, but I lied because I thought that’s what the investigators wanted to hear.” McNamee only said that he understood, just like anyone would understand Clemens’ dismay over being ratted out by a former friend.

For all the times McNamee begged Clemens to declare what he wanted him to do, the pitcher never once requested that Mc-Namee tell the world he didn’t inject him with the bad stuff. InsteadClemens talked of needing “somebody to tell the truth.”

McNamee did tell the truth when he said he injected Andy Pettitte with human growth hormone. How do we know that?

Pettitte told us himself.

That’s a problem for Clemens, a big one. His teammate and friend, Pettitte, gave McNamee a credibility Rocket couldn’t simply vaporize with a verbal fastball or two.

So Clemens conceded, “Yes, I’ve gotten shots from Brian Mc- Namee.” They’re not squabbling over the needles, but over the juice those needles plunged into Clemens’ bloodstream.

Never mind that the feds warned McNamee a single lie could land him in prison: Has anyone vouched for Rocket’s credibility the way Pettitte vouched for McNamee’s? Clemens told “60 Minutes” he wasn’t aware of the allegations until the Mitchell Report was released. As it turns out, that was a fraudulent claim.

Either way, Clemens is now suing McNamee for making defamatory statements that allegedly “injured Clemens’ reputation and exposed him to public hatred, contempt, ridicule and financial injury.”

The suit maintains Mc-Namee acted with malice when he named Clemens as a steroid user, knowing that statement was false.

Expect a countersuit at a courthouse near you. But before this battle gets uglier in front of a judge and jury, some blood will be spilled at next week’s hearings on Capitol Hill.

“I’m going to Congress and I’m going to tell the truth,” Clemens said at the podium. He glared at the assembled reporters and told them where they could stuff their Hall of Fame ballots.

“I defy anybody to say I did it by cheating and by taking shortcuts,” he said.

He would storm off to end a very bad day. Clemens didn’t gain a thing from the playing of his secret tape, and he sure didn’t win any new fans by publicly airing the private struggles of a seriously ill child (McNamee’s), using and discarding a father’s pain as easily as he’d use and discard a resin bag.

Clemens could be writing his own Greek tragedy here, the kind authored by Pete Rose and Marion Jones on the sports side, and by Nixon and Clinton on the Capitol Hill side.

Rocket goes under oath Jan. 16. If he ends up lying that day, Roger Clemens should know that another round of lidocaine and B-12 won’t ease the pain.

E-mail: oconnor@northjersey.com

Roger Clemens is losing the biggest game of his life. The more he talks, the more he falls behind. The more he pleads his case to the American public, the more it sounds like he has no case to plead.

At a news conference in Houston on Monday, the day after he made body language experts dizzy with his twitchy performance in the “60 Minutes” lights, Clemens played the tape of a phone
conversation he had with Brian McNamee, his former trainer and Boy Friday who accused Rocket of fueling up on steroids and human growth hormone and testosterone in George Mitchell’s report.

The 17-minute tape wasn’t notable for what was said between the men, but for what was not.

Without knowing he was being recorded, McNamee never said he lied to investigators when he told them he injected performance enhancing drugs into Clemens’ rump. He never said he realized he was actually pumping Clemens with lidocaine and vitamin B-12, as Rocket swears.

“Tell me what you want me to do,” Mc-Namee asked his former client, repeating that thought some 20 times.

Clemens never grew angry on the tape. He somebody to tell the truth,” he said. He didn’t identify that somebody.
He didn’t offer details on the truth.

Clemens only got good and nasty in the question-and-answer session after the playing of the tape, when he was back in his environment,
back in front of the same reporters who had gathered around his locker for so many
years. At that moment, all the sneering, seething Rocket needed was some eye black.

But as he barked at his questioners from his hometown podium, looking like King Kong ready to break through the theater chains (or maybe like a raging Yankees pitcher ready to throw the jagged remains of a shattered World Series bat at a star Mets catcher), Clemens couldn’t stare down the part of the tape that made him look worse than his nervous exchange with Mike Wallace. A part of the tape that doesn’t exist.

Every right-minded listener had to be thinking the same thing: How could arguably the greatest big league pitcher of all time share a conversation with the man who’s tearing down his entire legacy
and not express unbridled outrage over the supposed lies that have called Clemens’ 354 victories and seven Cy Young Awards into doubt?

Clemens didn’t say, “Mac, why would you ever tell Mitchell and the feds you injected me with banned substances when you knew it was lidocaine and B-12 in those needles?”

Clemens didn’t say, “Mac, why did you implicate me in this scandal when you know I’ve never used steroids or human growth hormone or testosterone in your presence?”

Maybe Clemens was afraid of the answers that would’ve ended up on that tape. Maybe he knew he had to be creative with his own line of questioning.

“For the life of me I’m trying to find out why you would tell guys that I used steroids,” Clemens told McNamee.

Why McNamee would tell guys the pitcher used steroids. “I understand that,” McNamee responded.

The defrocked trainer didn’t say, “Sorry, Rog. My fault. I know you never used steroids, but I lied because I thought that’s what the investigators wanted to hear.” McNamee only said that he understood, just like anyone would understand Clemens’ dismay over being ratted out by a former friend.

For all the times McNamee begged Clemens to declare what he wanted him to do, the pitcher never once requested that Mc-Namee tell the world he didn’t inject him with the bad stuff. InsteadClemens talked of needing “somebody to tell the truth.”

McNamee did tell the truth when he said he injected Andy Pettitte with human growth hormone. How do we know that?

Pettitte told us himself.

That’s a problem for Clemens, a big one. His teammate and friend, Pettitte, gave McNamee a credibility Rocket couldn’t simply vaporize with a verbal fastball or two.

So Clemens conceded, “Yes, I’ve gotten shots from Brian Mc- Namee.” They’re not squabbling over the needles, but over the juice those needles plunged into Clemens’ bloodstream.

Never mind that the feds warned McNamee a single lie could land him in prison: Has anyone vouched for Rocket’s credibility the way Pettitte vouched for McNamee’s? Clemens told “60 Minutes” he wasn’t aware of the allegations until the Mitchell Report was released. As it turns out, that was a fraudulent claim.

Either way, Clemens is now suing McNamee for making defamatory statements that allegedly “injured Clemens’ reputation and exposed him to public hatred, contempt, ridicule and financial injury.”

The suit maintains Mc-Namee acted with malice when he named Clemens as a steroid user, knowing that statement was false.

Expect a countersuit at a courthouse near you. But before this battle gets uglier in front of a judge and jury, some blood will be spilled at next week’s hearings on Capitol Hill.

“I’m going to Congress and I’m going to tell the truth,” Clemens said at the podium. He glared at the assembled reporters and told them where they could stuff their Hall of Fame ballots.

“I defy anybody to say I did it by cheating and by taking shortcuts,” he said.

He would storm off to end a very bad day. Clemens didn’t gain a thing from the playing of his secret tape, and he sure didn’t win any new fans by publicly airing the private struggles of a seriously ill child (McNamee’s), using and discarding a father’s pain as easily as he’d use and discard a resin bag.

Clemens could be writing his own Greek tragedy here, the kind authored by Pete Rose and Marion Jones on the sports side, and by Nixon and Clinton on the Capitol Hill side.

Rocket goes under oath Jan. 16. If he ends up lying that day, Roger Clemens should know that another round of lidocaine and B-12 won’t ease the pain.

E-mail: oconnor@northjersey.com

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:17 am

Upcoming Sunday This will be a third time, Tony Romo will show that He's better quarterback than Eli and beat the Giants. Meanwhile Romo is undrafted free agent meanwhile Eli is first-pick taken in the draft. Romo threw for 592 yards and eight touchdowns against the Giants during the regular season. He completed seven passes of 22 or more yards in the opener. Eli's was sacked five times against Cowboys Defense and will pressure him alot.

Giants defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo used to coach the linebackers under Eagles defensive coordinator Jim Johnson, and you can bet that he'll be studying the tape of that game this week.

Spagnuolo's time in Philadelphia also gives him an intimate knowledge of Cowboys receiver Terrell Owens. Even if he's not at full strength, I think Spagnuolo will roll the coverage his way much like he tried to do against Randy Moss in the final game of the regular-season.

I'm worried about Crayton and Whitten. I think Patrick Crayton will have a big game for the Cowboys. When the Giants tried to take away Moss, Wes Welker lit them up. Crayton has eight catches for 117 yards and a touchdown against the Giants this season. He'll probably be in one-on-one coverage with rookie cornerback Aaron Ross most of the game, and the Cowboys like that matchup.

I also think offensive coordinator Jason Garrett will make more of a commitment to the running game. In the final month of the season, he didn't give Marion Barber enough touches.

I'm hoping that Spagnuolo watch Eagles defense when they play Cowboys on Week5. Eagles defensive coordinator Jim Johnson did a great job of slowing the Cowboys' high-powered offense by restricting the running lanes for Julius Jones and Marion Barber and forcing Dallas into third-and-long situations. By doing that, Johnson made the Cowboys' offense one-dimensional. And knowing Dallas would be passing, Johnson unleashed his zone blitz schemes. QB Tony Romo never seemed to get into rhythm and made some critical game-changing mistakes on the back end. By keeping the Cowboys' offense on its heels. the Eagles were able to get pressure late in the game with their four-man rush while being very physical on the back end when dropping seven. This was a huge upset victory for the Eagles on the road.

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:10 am

Focus first: In the aftermath of the Cowboys' 31-20 win over New York on Nov. 11, WR Patrick Crayton colorfully described his team's triumph as a marking of its territory at Giants Stadium. When asked about the statement Monday, the loquacious receiver conceded that bad blood exists between the teams but pledged to stay quiet on the subject.

"You understand the magnitude of what's about to happen," Crayton said of the playoffs. "You understand all the excitement and that everything around you is going to step up to another level, so that's what you've got to do to your game. It's all about the focus and being keyed in."

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:11 am

Buster Olney- Top stories to follow in 2008

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster

There are congressional hearings and defamation suits and depositions to come, many other threads to be pulled from baseball's Steroid Era. And keep in mind: What is occurring is self-inflicted, courtesy of the commissioner's decision 22 months ago to plow ahead with an investigation that had no chance of being complete or done in context.

Major League Baseball might have turned the corner on the subject of performance-enhancing drugs in the spring of 2006, as the National Basketball Association and the National Football League had already managed to do, with new testing programs and forward thinking.

But instead, Bud Selig picked at a scab over a fresh wound that everybody in the sport already understood to be ugly, and baseball is now doomed to many more months of salacious but disputed details, more conversation about why individuals chose to take performance-enhancing drugs, and why nobody in power did a damn thing about it for more than a decade. The dominant story lines of 2008 will be built around Roger Clemens' fight to save his reputation, and Barry Bonds' fight to stay out of jail. Goose Gossage will likely learn today that he will be inducted into the Hall of Fame this summer, and inevitably, he will be asked about two Hall of Fame candidates who haven't even formally retired, in Bonds and Clemens.

But there will be baseball, eventually. There will be games, with players doing things we've never seen before and teams surprising or disappointing or shocking us. In the PED Free Zone, here are 13 story lines that will be followed in 2008:

1. Where will Johan Santana be traded, and when will he be traded?
Santana may be the best pitcher on the planet, but there is a distinct lack of enthusiasm among Boston and Yankees officials to add more players to the offers they have made to Minnesota. The Mets would love to have Santana, but Twins' talent evaluators view the Mets' prospects as being dramatically inferior to those of the Red Sox and Yankees.

Either the Twins will have to embrace the idea that they will accept less than they wanted for Santana, or they'll open the season with him. I don't know where he's going to land, but the guess here is -- and a guess is all it is -- that he eventually lands with Boston, for a package built around Jacoby Ellsbury.

2. Just how many runs will the Tigers score -- and will it be enough to prop up their thin pitching staff?
Justin Verlander might win 20 games with the staggering run support he is likely to receive, because there are days when he may allow six runs in five innings and still win by a touchdown; the Tigers may be the latest team to take a run at scoring 1,000 runs. But Detroit will likely be without Joel Zumaya the whole season, and the Tigers desperately need Dontrelle Willis -- whose diminished stuff was noted by NL advance scouts last year -- to be a solid middle-of-the-rotation starter.

3. Can the Colorado Rockies follow up and grow on their 2007 success?
A lot of the conversation in Colorado this summer will be about whether the Rockies will be able to sign outfielder Matt Holliday, or if the Rockies will have to move the Boras client, in the same way the Rangers felt compelled to move Mark Teixeira in the middle of last year. Either way, Holliday will continue to hit and shortstop Troy Tulowitzki will continue to develop into one of the game's rising stars, and Colorado will battle with the Diamondbacks and Padres and Dodgers for the NL West lead.

The Rockies could repeat as NL champions if their young pitchers, Franklin Morales and Ubaldo Jimenez, follow up on their late-season success and give Colorado a full and solid year of production.

4. Can the Mets rebound from their 2007 collapse?
Mets players and officials have acknowledged feeling some hangover from their brutal September disintegration, and every day in spring training, reporters will ask them questions about those lost days. And there is great concern, among players, about the pitching staff. Despite the efforts of GM Omar Minaya, the Mets still have not added a front-of-the-rotation starter to fill the vacancy created by the departure of Tom Glavine.

Fair or not, right or wrong, this is the reality for the Mets: If they don't make the playoffs this year, then the jobs of manager Willie Randolph and some players -- and maybe even Minaya -- could be on the line, depending on how the year plays out.

5. Will Kosuke Fukudome make the Cubs the favorite in the NL Central?
On paper, he would seem to fit the Cubs' perfectly -- he's a left-handed hitter among many right-handed hitters, he's athletic, he hits for some power, and he gets on base. And the Cubs should be better in other ways: Carlos Zambrano no longer has to fight the distraction of his contract situation, Alfonso Soriano may be more healthy, and the players will be more accustomed to the ebbs and flows of Lou Piniella's temperament.

6. Can Joe Torre make a difference in Los Angeles?
The Dodgers' clubhouse was fractured at year's end, and Grady Little couldn't repair the rift between the older and younger players on the Los Angeles roster. Maybe Torre can get more out of the Dodgers, with a lineup that has been augmented by the addition of Andruw Jones and a rotation that now includes Hiroki Kuroda.

7. Can the aging Braves' rotation hold up?
Glavine rejoins the Atlanta staff, teaming with old pal John Smoltz and maybe left-hander Mike Hampton, if Hampton can stay on the field, and Tim Hudson. We know the Braves are going to score runs, and if Glavine can be effective and Smoltz can stay healthy and Hampton can be productive, this could be a pretty good team.

8. Is Joe Girardi a genius or an idiot?
I don't mean that literally, but it's New York and it's the Yankees and Girardi is replacing a future Hall of Famer in Torre, which means that there will be a very hard bottom line at the end of the year: If the Yankees make the playoffs and win at least one round -- something the team hasn't done since 2004 -- then Girardi will be cast as a genius. And if the Yankees fail to make the playoffs for the first time since 1993, well, he's going to be cast as an idiot.

9. Can the Red Sox defend their title?
They will go into the season as solid favorites to win the World Series, especially if they do manage to complete the deal for Santana. And if Boston wins its third title in five years, then the conversation about whether the Red Sox qualify as a dynasty will begin.

10. Who will get Erik Bedard?
The Orioles probably will trade the left-hander at some point before the July 31 deadline, and if Bedard stays healthy and continues to pitch the way he did in 2007, he will be the biggest difference-maker dealt (assuming that Santana is traded before the start of the season" target=new>. The Orioles will get an enormous package of players in return -- maybe from Seattle, or Los Angeles, or Boston, or some other team desperate for a frontline pitcher.

11. How good (or bad) will Oakland be?
Billy Beane committed fully to a rebuilding program when he traded Dan Haren and Nick Swisher, and he may well trade Joe Blanton and Huston Street. This may translate into success in 2010, but it could get ugly in 2008. When scouts predicted last spring that Washington would struggle to win games, what they clearly underestimated was how the mediocrity of the National League would factor into the equation. For the Athletics, however, there are very few mulligans in the AL, and the series that pit Oakland against powerhouses like Boston and Detroit and the Angels may force us to avert our eyes.

12. Ken Griffey, Jr. closes on 600 homers.
He has 593 and counting. And whether you think it's right or wrong, fair or unfair, his accomplishments will inevitably be cast as genuine, at a time when the other great player of his generation, Bonds, will be in court.

13. Greg Maddux closes on Roger Clemens, and Warren Spahn.
Count me among those who thought Maddux's career was on fumes two or three years ago, and yet the right-hander just keeps figuring out how to win games. He has 347 victories, only seven fewer than Clemens, and incredibly, he needs only 16 to match Spahn's 363 -- the most wins for any pitcher after 1930.

• The Orioles may wind up bringing back Corey Patterson to play center field, writes Dan Connolly.

• Ronny Paulino is looking to shake off his rough 2008 season, writes Dejan Kovacevic. New Pirates manager John Russell sat down for a Q and A with Rob Biertempfel.

• Eleven minor leaguers signed with Detroit.

• Rick Ankiel is among those Cardinals eligible for arbitration.

• Tom Glavine was sick and missed a chance to skate with the Atlanta Thrashers.

• The Rays won't seek state money for their new ballpark.

• Major League Baseball is beefing up clubhouse security.

• The Rockies are about to sign Marcus Giles, writes Tracy Ringolsby.

• Jason Churchill writes about 10 prospects to watch in the Seattle farm system.

• Duaner Sanchez signed a 2008 contract.

• Jack Morris thinks that this year's Hall of Fame voting could be a barometer for whether he'll ever get in.

• Moss Klein has a great story here about Goose Gossage.

PED ZONE
• Roger Clemens took a swipe at Hall of Fame voters who won't cast a ballot for him because of the steroid allegations, as Jesus Ortiz writes.

There is a wide range of opinion about the tape of the phone conversation that was played during Monday's press conference (Here's a transcript of some key parts, courtesy of the Houston Chronicle).

Brian McNamee was the one who sounds desperate now, writes Richard Justice, who thought that McNamee sounded as if he was asking Clemens for money. McNamee sounded pathetic, writes Mike Vaccaro, but nothing said on the tape exposed him as a liar.

Ian O'Connor thought the tape raised more questions than it answered for Clemens. It was a misfire for Clemens, writes Mike Lupica.

Clemens' story has holes, writes Phil Rogers.

Shaun Powell wonders if we'll ever know the truth.

Clemens' lawsuit was soft, writes Gwen Knapp.

After the tape was played, McNamee's lawyer said: This is war.

McNamee tells Jim Baumbach he should've never gotten involved with steroids.

• Hank Steinbrenner has Clemens' back.

• It is George Mitchell who has the most to lose in this matter, writes Thom Loverro, because if Clemens wins in his fight to clear his name, the Mitchell report will be effectively discredited.

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:12 am

Buster Olney- Top stories to follow in 2008

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster

1. Where will Johan Santana be traded, and when will he be traded?
Santana may be the best pitcher on the planet, but there is a distinct lack of enthusiasm among Boston and Yankees officials to add more players to the offers they have made to Minnesota. The Mets would love to have Santana, but Twins' talent evaluators view the Mets' prospects as being dramatically inferior to those of the Red Sox and Yankees.

Either the Twins will have to embrace the idea that they will accept less than they wanted for Santana, or they'll open the season with him. I don't know where he's going to land, but the guess here is -- and a guess is all it is -- that he eventually lands with Boston, for a package built around Jacoby Ellsbury.

8. Is Joe Girardi a genius or an idiot?
I don't mean that literally, but it's New York and it's the Yankees and Girardi is replacing a future Hall of Famer in Torre, which means that there will be a very hard bottom line at the end of the year: If the Yankees make the playoffs and win at least one round -- something the team hasn't done since 2004 -- then Girardi will be cast as a genius. And if the Yankees fail to make the playoffs for the first time since 1993, well, he's going to be cast as an idiot.

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:19 am

Good snippet on Tony Wise
mrfield16 Post #1: 9:03 am Quote | Report Violation
Total Posts: 2689

Buh-Bye!

Embattled defensive coordinator Bob Sutton didn't receive a vote of confidence. Mangini is "evaluating his whole staff and that's a work in progress," Tannenbaum said. Offensive line coach Tony Wise reportedly is a candidate for the same position at Pitt, so his departure appears inevitable. Offensive coordinator Brian Schottenheimer interviewed yesterday for the Ravens' head-coaching vacancy.

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:31 am

Is Joba Chamberlain the next Rocket?

More stats for the nerds at Baseball Think Factory

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/is_joba_chamberlain_the_next_rocket/#When:12:30:01Z

1. Teddy the Wonder Lizard Posted: January 05, 2008 at 09:30 AM (#2660887)
Don't think these expectations/projections are reasonable for a guy who has not started an MLB game. Chamberlain displayed obvious talent in his capacity as a set up man, but the mindset and physical approach is totally different from that of a starter. Let's see him go a second/third time through a batting order. Let's give him a chance to develop (or redevelop)the requisite third pitch he'll need. He's probably going to be terrific, but comparing to the best in the game and one of the best ever is ludicrous and incredibly unfair at this point. As talented as Chamberlain is, is he really anymore so than Felix Hernandez??? I think Chamberlain will experince some growing pains, similar to what Felix (who I see as being great this year)went through.
2. Howie Menckel Posted: January 05, 2008 at 09:46 AM (#2660892)
No.
3. Ivan Grushenko of HK in St Louis Posted: January 05, 2008 at 09:48 AM (#2660893)
At least they didn't compare him with Chief Bender.
4. ekogan Posted: January 05, 2008 at 10:58 AM (#2660916)
This guy makes a number of basic mistakes in his article.
1) He gives R-squared numbers for pitcher statistics without giving what correlation is being talked about. Is it between a component stat and next year's stat? Is it between a component stat and this year's ERA? Next year's ERA? The author doesn't seem to understand that R-squared describes a relationship between two variables, not a single variable.
2) He compares Joba's relief stats versus other starting pitchers' numbers and concludes that Joba is better. Of course a reliever will put up better rate numbers than if he were a starter.

The only thing we can conclude from this article is that the author read about sabermetrics and understand most, but not all of it.
5. kevin Posted: January 05, 2008 at 11:05 AM (#2660925)
TINSTAAPP
6. buddy Posted: January 05, 2008 at 11:37 AM (#2660945)
one major difference is physique at the same age. clemens was almost svelte, and chamberlain is hefty sized.
7. Mike Hampton's #1 Fan Posted: January 05, 2008 at 11:52 AM (#2660958)
Is Joba Chamberlain poised to become the best pitcher of all time? Uh, maybe so, but I'd say the odds are agin' it.
8. Munsons Stash Posted: January 05, 2008 at 11:57 AM (#2660964)
I'm most interested in the comparison of Joba to Paplebon. While I think Joba is better according to scouting reports (throws harder, better breaking ball), I think the transition to starting will have him facing very similar hurdles, especially as he tries to do it against major leaguers.

I think his slider is the key. If he can throw it for strikes he should be fine as a fastball-slider type (obviously a third pitch, ideally a change, would help him reach his potential as an ace), but if he can't throw his slider for strikes and keep hitters honest I can see them laying off and waiting for a FB that even if they can't square it up they can foul off and take him into deep counts to get him out of the game earlier. Then a 3rd pitch would become absolutely necessary.
9. In the Disney betting pool, Roy Oswalt Posted: January 05, 2008 at 12:12 PM (#2660973)
TINSTAAPP?

Ah, but

TISATAAP
10. Joe C isn't Posted: January 05, 2008 at 12:12 PM (#2660974)
As talented as Chamberlain is, is he really anymore so than Felix Hernandez???

I'll defer to the Emeighs and Laws of the world on this, but I would say Hernandez pretty easily has more talent and stuff than Joba.
11. OmarGitRDone! (1k5v3L) Posted: January 05, 2008 at 12:42 PM (#2660995)
Shouldn't we give Joba a couple of seasons in the majors before making comparisons? Give the kid a chance to load up on B-12 and lidocaine.
12. Bodie's incessant spitting (NJASDJDH) Posted: January 05, 2008 at 12:57 PM (#2661010)
I think his slider is the key. If he can throw it for strikes he should be fine as a fastball-slider type (obviously a third pitch, ideally a change, would help him reach his potential as an ace), but if he can't throw his slider for strikes and keep hitters honest I can see them laying off and waiting for a FB that even if they can't square it up they can foul off and take him into deep counts to get him out of the game earlier. Then a 3rd pitch would become absolutely necessary.

and

I would say Hernandez pretty easily has more talent and stuff than Joba.

From BA's Yankee Top 10:

Scouts chuckle with delight discussing Chamberlain's raw stuff, and several give him 70 or 80 grades on the 20-80 scouting scale for three different pitches...commands two breaking balls--a mid-80s slider with depth and a nasty power curveball in the low 80s. Both are strikeout pitches...

13. Le Metaphysicien Posted: January 05, 2008 at 12:58 PM (#2661012)
OMG STERIODSES
14. Larry Mahnken Posted: January 05, 2008 at 01:48 PM (#2661053)

I would say Hernandez pretty easily has more talent and stuff than Joba.

He might have better stuff, but it's not "easily".
15. Andy Posted: January 05, 2008 at 02:29 PM (#2661078)
I would say Hernandez pretty easily has more talent and stuff than Joba.

He might have better stuff, but it's not "easily".

Not to mention that he's already broken down once in his young career, and in his last two years he's been back and forth and very inconsistent. If "talent" and "stuff" were all it took, the HoF would be filled with Vida Blues and Mark Fidryches.

At this point all you can say about either Hernandez or Chamberlain is this if they can stay healthy, they've each got a shot at greatness. So did Mike Norris.
16. Walt Davis Posted: January 05, 2008 at 04:06 PM (#2661169)
Congress should get in early and have him testify now rather than waiting 20 years.

Not to mention that he's already broken down once in his young career, and in his last two years he's been back and forth and very inconsistent.

I assumed that was the point being made -- he doesn't have greater potential (or "easily" less potential according to the poster) than Hernandez ... and he hasn't become the next Pedro. (It's against baseball rules to compare a Latin player with Clemens of course) If it can happen to King Felix, it can happen to anyone.

And Joba ain't got more stuff than Kerry Wood -- lord, that slider was nasty.

The author doesn't seem to understand that R-squared describes a relationship between two variables, not a single variable.

Haven't read the article yet, but R-squared is usually used to describe a relationship between one variable and a whole group of other variables, as in a linear regression. It can be used to describe the relationship between just two variables but it's redundant with the (Pearson) correlation (r ... which folks seem more comfortable with for some reason) in that case.

OK, I checked the article now. You're right, the author clearly has a limited understanding of what that table means. And the table isn't very useful. I looked at the BPro article cited and it's year-to-year correlations (or r-square) on those particular measures. The author of the Joba article says these are correlations "projecting a pitcher's career" when all they're doing is looking at their next season. And it leaves unspecified how Joba's K-rate being consistent next year leads to "success". (Granted, I didn't read all of Click's article and he probably talks about some of that stuff later on ... but the link between Joba's rate stats to date and his future success aren't made in this article.)

There's also the problem that Click's sample was restricted to pitchers with at least 50 IP (in each season I assume) while Joba had only 24 (or 27.2 if you include the playoffs) so it's naughty to treat Click's results as applying to him.

Nevertheless, a "properly" done analysis looking at the future success of, say, pitchers with those kinds of component stats in their first 20-30 MLB IP probably would predict a bright future for Joba. It would probably also turn up a lot of guys who got hurt and guys who disappointed.

But this may be a groundbreaking article -- it's on the sabermetrics of card collecting. Using sabermetrics to identify market inefficiencies in rookie cards. :-) There's got to be a market for this sort of thing. Seriously ... using MLEs, etc. to project future card worth ... somebody will buy it.
17. RB in NYC (Now with LSAT Anxiety!) Posted: January 05, 2008 at 04:15 PM (#2661177)
Also, if Randy Johnson could be the best pitcher in baseball year-in and year-out with a strong fastball and a slider waaaay out of the zone, I'm pretty sure Joba could at least be decent with that combo.
18. andrewberg Posted: January 05, 2008 at 04:19 PM (#2661188)
Whoever starts claiming that Chamberlain will surpass Clemens better hire himself a helluva good lawyer.
19. Robert S. Believes in The Dan Posted: January 05, 2008 at 04:34 PM (#2661202)

Also, if Randy Johnson could be the best pitcher in baseball year-in and year-out with a strong fastball and a slider waaaay out of the zone, I'm pretty sure Joba could at least be decent with that combo.

I'm pretty sure Randy Johnson's career does not say that about Joba. Or anything of substance, for that matter.
20. jwb Posted: January 05, 2008 at 04:45 PM (#2661211)
Joba Chamberlain pitched 1/3 of a Hall of Fame worthy season in relief. But it's only 24 innings, people. Here's a list:

Joba Chamberlain, 2007 (R, 21)
Brian Bruney, 2006 (24)
Matt Smith, 2006 (R, 27)
Paul Kilgus, 1993 (31)
Joel Johnston, 1991 (R, 24)
Bob Milacki, 1988 (R, 23)
Bruce Howard, 1964 (R, 21)
John Tsitouris, 1962 (26)
Foster Edwards, 1926 (R, 22)
George Sisler, 1916 (23)
Cliff Markle, 1915 (R, 21)
Earl Moore, 1908 (28)
Harry Coveleski, 1907 (R, 21)
Bob Spade, 1907 (R, 30)
Martin Glendon, 1903 (R, 26)

20-30 IP, ERA <= 1.00, (R[ookie], Age). There are a lot of reasons to prefer Joba Chamberlain's season to most of these guys' (K rate, K/BB ratio), but the only one in the Hall of Fame hit .340 over 15 seasons.

Anybody got a scouting report on the young Harry Coveleski? Cliff Markle had some rockin' minor league stats. I heard Paul Kilgus is thinking about a comeback.

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:32 am

Cognitive dissonance surrounding Joba’s future role
Posted by: Ben K. in Joba Chamberlain

http://riveraveblues.com/

We haven’t dropped in on our good buddy Joba Chamberlain in a while so let’s visit with the Yanks’ Number 1 prospect, according to Baseball America.

As is always the case these days with Joba, there’s a lot on the Internet about him. All of it is contradictory, and as an added bonus, none of it involves Hank Steinbrenner, Joe Girardi of Brian Cashman taking about Joba’s place in the rotation or bullpen next year. Instead, it comes from the Joba-Worshipping Yankee Universe.

In one corner, we have Joba the Starter. By way of Baseball Think Factory, we have Wax Heaven, a baseball card blog, taking a look at Joba Chamberlain. Mario Alejandro, the site’s author, runs a whole bunch of comps and finds that, yes, Joba Chamberlain should be a pretty damn good starter in 2008 and forever more. The conclusion:

Though Chamberlain’s GB% wasn’t very high, his K/9 ratio was so high that he effectively pitched better than every pitcher we have looked at thus far. I am fully aware that Chamberlain’s numbers are based off of a small sample size and his ERA will not stay at 0.38, but his K/9 ratio is very consistent with his minor league stats and his GB% is actually much lower than his minor league average. I expect that his K/9 ratio will remain above 10 and his GB% will likely reach 50% next year, meaning that he could easily outperform 95% of American League pitchers, including Johan Santana.

So how do Yankee fans respond to this glowing praise from an unbiased fan who doesn’t purport to have a mancrush on Joba like we do here at RAB? By turning to the other corner and mentioning Joba the Reliever of course. By way of My Baseball Bias comes this poll on YesNetwork.com. The poll asks, “Who should be Mariano Rivera’s primary set-up man?” While none of the choices are Ross Ohlendorf, visitors can opt for Kyle Farnsworth, LaTroy Hawkins or Joba Chamberlain. With 2646 votes counted, Joba has received 53 percent of them, Hawkins 31 percent and Farnsworth at 16.

Talk about bad third-place finishes.

This is, of course, no surprise. Everyone loved watching Joba come out of the pen last year and do his best Mariano Rivera circa 1996 impression. And the numbers are pretty damn impressive: 24 IP, 12 H, 6 BB, 34 K. It’s hard to argue with that. But it’s harder to sacrifice Joba’s place in the rotation and the potential to be the next Roger Clemens, sans Vitamin B12 shots, or Johan Santana.

Meanwhile, the YES Network poll highlights a topic Joe is planning on covering before Spring Training: the precarious state of the Yankee bullpen. With Hawkins and Farnsworth the designated heirs to the 8th inning right now, I’m stocking up on Pepto Bismal and calling my (non-existent) heart doctor. As I said, I’d like to see Ross Ohlendorf given that spot if he shows up and has a good spring training. He was willing to throw strikes in limited September duty, and his stuff is better than Hawkins’.

With Spring Training a few weeks away, we’ll be hearing a lot about Joba. But for now, it’s the same old, same old. Everyone thinks he should start except Yankee fans who were so seduced by his bullpen presence last year. Stick him in the rotation, I say. There’s your ace

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:33 am

#

I really don’t see the relief argument…. He’s more valuable in the rotation (every pitcher is, unless you have 1 pitch or something) and it’s better for him and the Yankees long term. However, I do agree with starting him the ‘pen for the first 6 weeks or so to limit his innings ONLY if he is put back in the rotation after a month or so.
#
dan says:
January 8th, 2008 at 1:10 am (Reply)

And Ben, I think your first sentence needs to be tweaked (haven’t)

1.
Ben K. says:
January 8th, 2008 at 1:12 am (Reply)

So it did. Thanks, dan.

#
E-ROC says:
January 8th, 2008 at 2:47 am (Reply)

Hopefully, Joba returns to the rotation after starting the year in the ‘pen, if that’s even true. Some of those bullpen options will stick. Lets pray that something sticks sooner rather than later.
#
barry says:
January 8th, 2008 at 4:24 am (Reply)

I love Joba in the rotation, the reality is that if you do this you need a 6 man rotation to limit innings on the young guns( I personally think you need one regardless of whether Joba is or not because either way Phil and Ian don’t make up the difference). The problem is the 6-man is sort of taboo in the baseball world, but who knows maybe they’ll spot start Igawa against really shitty teams. I like the Yankees rotation either way and Joba is still going to win us games no matter what his role is, but honestly I’d rather see a season performance similar to a Dwight Gooden circa 1984 than Mariano Rivera circa 1996. Who knows though maybe I’m swinging for the fences.
#
Stu says:
January 8th, 2008 at 5:47 am (Reply)

The best solution I’ve read is using Joba and Kennedy together as a 5th starter. In this scenario, Joba would pitch 4-5 innings and Kennedy would pitch 4-5 innings, together going a complete game, and resting the bullpen every 5th day, unless disaster strikes. That way, both of their innings are kept down until you need them both to be starters later in the season, when presumably their stamina is up.
#
Jeff says:
January 8th, 2008 at 7:06 am (Reply)

I may be crazy but I have a feeling Fanrns is going to be better this year. Playing for the contract and pitching out of the windup wich he finally found at the end of last season might make a difference. Ben you may be right and we could all drop dead before that happens.
With that said I think Joba needs to be in the rotation… someone else needs to step up to make that happen( I’m really looking forward to seeing what Humberto can do once he gets healthy). If not thought I think Giardi is going to be second guessing especially if Joba experiences some growing pains in his new role.

1.
eric from morrisania says:
January 8th, 2008 at 8:08 am (Reply)

You’re absolutely right, i agree with you 100%.

You ARE crazy. (About Farnsworth, that is…)

#
Mike A. says:
January 8th, 2008 at 9:22 am (Reply)

I dunno what in the word happened to baseball, but becoming a reliever is supposed to be a fall back option, not a goal. Leave him in the rotation until he proves he can’t handle it. That’s not a Joba-specific quote either.

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:38 am

Bedard trade to Mariners stalls
LARRY LARUE; The News Tribune
Published: January 4th, 2008 01:00 AM

http://www.thenewstribune.com/sports/mariners/story/245470.html

The scenario the Seattle Mariners knew was likely became a little more so Thursday, when the Baltimore Orioles said their current plans are to open the 2008 season with left-hander Erik Bedard as their ace.

“The likelihood of doing something prior to 2008 is very, very low in my estimation,” Orioles general manager Andy MacPhail told the Baltimore Sun.

While that might be meant to drive offers up, MacPhail has been adamant for months that Bedard – a 28-year-old under contract for another two years – would only be dealt if an offer was overwhelming.

The Mariners, Blue Jays, Reds and others have tried without success and the offseason auction of three top pitchers – Bedard, Minnesota’s Johan Santana and Oakland’s Dan Haren – has produced just one trade.

Haren went to the Arizona Diamondbacks for a package of young players, but neither Santana or Bedard has landed anywhere despite plenty of bids.

The Mariners were willing to deal outfielder Adam Jones, catcher Jeff Clement and young pitching – anyone but Brandon Morrow. That offer has been on the table more than a month, and the Orioles haven’t accepted.

While Seattle wouldn’t talk about Bedard on Thursday, Baltimore’s willingness to go into the season with their No. 1 pitcher on the roster is hardly a surprise.

Mariners general manager Bill Bavasi has said both Minnesota and Baltimore are in enviable positions – sitting on top-of-the-rotation pitchers who will either help their teams this season or, if traded, help retool a franchise.

blogs.thenewstribune.com/mariners

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:38 am

Should it go through????? WTF????????? How could they not send a signed deal back right away if we were dumb enough to include Jones AND Triunfel. And here I thought we weren’t going to get Fleeced in any deal….. Tell me a deal of Jones/Triunfel alone couldn’t get the deal done nor land Santana for that matter were he interested in coming here.
I have never quite figured out their infatuation with Morrow. I like him sure but if you get Bedard - one replaces the other. This is a travesty if it goes through. Maybe we will get lucky and their owner will decline the trade.
2
Jason A. Churchill says:
January 7th, 2008 at 7:36 pm

We should forget Santana. He won’t agree to come here and he won’t sign an extension anywhere but NY.
3
lamda says:
January 7th, 2008 at 7:44 pm

I know I was just saying that trade would have easily landed him. All I can say is that if we send both Jones AND Triunfel - he better come with an extension. Any notes on that happening?
4
Jason A. Churchill says:
January 7th, 2008 at 7:45 pm

No, it wouldn’t have. That’s my point.

A very large part of trade value is whether the trade is even possible.
5
gwangung says:
January 7th, 2008 at 8:14 pm

Ghah.

This is stupid beyond belief.
6
lamda says:
January 7th, 2008 at 8:38 pm

So do you have any insight onto whether or not we’d be able to sign Bedard to an extension?
7
Greg07 says:
January 7th, 2008 at 9:10 pm

Wow. I cannot believe the Mariners would even THINK about that trade. What are the chances of this trade actually happening? Can the Mariners be getting robbed any more? Imagine what Billy Beane could get in return if he was the O’s gm.
8
Adam says:
January 7th, 2008 at 10:13 pm

Ugh. Please, Wayne Krivsky, or Omar Minaya - step to the plate. Please, Peter Angelos, stick your nose into personnel decisions and nix this one. Please, Bill Bavasi, find some IQ laying around.

I don’t know if I can root for this organization if this deal were to happen, with or without Triunfel.
9
Walrus says:
January 7th, 2008 at 10:47 pm

Jason,
I guess I lied when I said I would not ask for anything…Can you call Chris Larson and ask him to stop this PLEASE!!!!
10
PositivePaul says:
January 7th, 2008 at 11:17 pm

In the wise words of little Vada Sultenfuss:

Do wa diddy diddy DUM diddy doooooo….
11
Pete says:
January 8th, 2008 at 2:41 am

Jason, you can’t be serious about this. I hate this team. What can we do to stop it?
12
Jason A. Churchill says:
January 8th, 2008 at 3:33 am

We don’t matter to the M’s brass. We can’t do anything.

Write or fax letters to the ballclub, I don’t know.
13
d2ret says:
January 8th, 2008 at 5:10 am

Jason is there any chance you might make a contact with the club on behalf of every true m’s fan out there who would not support such a trade?

I mean if we make this deal Im done, seriously. Im born and raised in Seatte, grew up watching games in the Kingdome, but to me, this is no joke, if this deal goes down with the names you are speaking of, Im rooting for the Oakland A’s for the remainder of my days.
Goddam Lincoln, Bavasi, the whole lot of clowns up there.
14
d2ret says:
January 8th, 2008 at 5:15 am

….just when we begin to put together some serious young talent, these guys want to ship it for a guy we have a 50/50 shot at best to resign? I dont know what to say except these guys dont diserve a job running the hot dog joint at safeco field.
15
Salty Dog says:
January 8th, 2008 at 5:35 am

I agree with everything that’s been said, but just to play devil’s advocate here:

- Jones has far more value at CF than in RF
- We have Ichiro in CF, making Jones less valuable to us than to other teams because we can’t play him in CF
- Our scouting in Latin America is typically very good; there’s always another Triunfel out there
- Bedard would certainly be a type A free agent should he leave after 2 years, netting us draft picks that would help offset the talent loss
- If you believe in Fontaine, the talent can be regained in short order
- We have Wlad as an option in a corner O; still a very good prospect, albeit not as good as Jones
- Sherrill is good, but bullpen arms can be replaced

Not saying I’m in favor of the deal, but there are some arguments for it.
16
Jason A. Churchill says:
January 8th, 2008 at 5:47 am

Here’s how I’d counter that, Dog, and I know you were just playing DA.

- Ichiro won’t be playing center field in six years.

- He’s not THAT less valuable, because if he’s put in left field where he belongs, he covers nearly as much ground as there is to cover in center field at Camden, for example.

- Trading Triunfel isn’t tragic. The package is.

- But those draft picks won’t be top 15.

- It’s difficult to replace the Jones-Clement types, because there isn’t much risk in them anymore. They are almost certain to contribute regularly in the bigs. With draftees and Latin signings, they are years away and loaded with risk.

- Again, Sherril is expendable. It’s the package and lack of return that sucks.

The argument the M’s are using internally is centered around job security (Bavasi, Lincoln) and making the owners, and therefore Lincoln, too, money by deceiving fans into buying season tickets to a “winner.”
17
Jason A. Churchill says:
January 8th, 2008 at 5:48 am

Also, if Jones is traded, they almost have to use to Raul and Balentien in the corners.

Not a good defensive set, though Wlad isn’t terrible.

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:43 am

Baby Boss: Don't rush to judgment on Clemens

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7649858

Updated: January 7, 2008, 9:42 PM EST 7 comments

TAMPA, Fla. (AP) - Hank Steinbrenner isn't sure whether Roger Clemens used steroids and human growth hormone. The New York Yankees senior vice president thinks others are rushing to judgment, though.

Clemens held a news conference Monday in Houston, again denying allegations in last month's Mitchell Report that he used performance-enhancing drugs.

"I thought that the press conference spoke for itself," Steinbrenner said Monday night outside Legends Field at the Yankees' spring training complex. "I thought the media commentary after the press conference was over was a little harsh. Too much rush to judgment in this country. As far as whether he's telling the truth or not, I have no clue. But I'm not going to say, well, he's lying, like everybody on TV did after he was done."

Clemens filed a defamation suit late Sunday night against his former trainer, Brian McNamee, who told George Mitchell's investigators that he injected the seven-time Cy Young Award winner with steroids and HGH in 1998, 2000 and 2001 - before baseball players and owners agreed to ban those substances.

"Everybody, the media, all said, 'Oh, he's got to sue,"' Steinbrenner said. "(Barry) Bonds never sued. Everybody said, 'Why not?' Well, this guy is suing and now they still don't believe him. You've got to start to wonder at some point. I don't rush to judgment. That's the big thing with me. I don't do that, and that's the exact term for it, rush to judgment."

Steinbrenner also agreed with comments made earlier this month by Joe Torre, who managed the Yankees from 1996-2007.

A total of 20 current and former Yankees were identified in Mitchell's report. Torre said the high total likely was due to two of Mitchell's primary sources being from the New York area: McNamee and former Mets clubhouse attendant Kirk Radomski, which "made it look like a lopsided report," Torre said.

Torre also suspects drug use might have been more widespread.

"The biggest thing is, I agree with what Torre said about the Mitchell Report, which I thought was great he said it. Of course, that was his team, too," Steinbrenner said. "That is, it was extremely lopsided towards the Yankees. You can't tell me all those teams weren't doing it. Of course they were."

Torre won the World Series four times in his first five years with New York before leaving at the end of last season and becoming manager of the Los Angeles Dodgers.

Roger is a fat rat liar!!
mcurio
1/7/2008
9:12 PM (report inappropriate content)

That's right. No rushing to judgment on poor Roger....Ok, he's guilty. Let him have it!!!!!!
jdub232323
1/7/2008
9:03 PM (report inappropriate content)

Torre basically stated he thinks the roids problem that was a lot more wide spread then what has been discovered. Look at his comment about why so many Yankess were on the list....because those two trainers were from NY. There were probably many MacNammee all over baseball. THis story is just a drop in the bucket. The beginning of many more to come!
nyy78916
1/7/2008
8:38 PM (report inappropriate content)

What ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? I really don't know who's telling the truth and who's lying. Maybe one day we will find out!
Deywalker
1/7/2008
8:38 PM (report inappropriate content)

Who cares if Roger cheated. It was good for the game, and the commisioner knew about all the cheaters. Just drop it, and start fresh from here on. This is the asterisk era, and will always be seen that way. Integrity is gone, and needs to try to be rebuilt with current players, not retired players.
Yanksrule!
1/7/2008
7:20 PM (report inappropriate content)

Before and after? When's before? 1986? Most guys, especially if they work out, look a little different at 45 than when they were 23, don't you think? You can't look 23 all your life! And enough with this already! I'm sick of hearing about it! Aren't we at war? Doesn't this inneffective Congress have ANYTHING ELSE to do?! Guess not, it's an election year! TOTAL wasw of tax-payer dollars:now THAT'S obscene!
dep23
1/7/2008
7:07 PM (report inappropriate content)

never rush to judge....just look at the rocket's before and now photos..lol..hes all juiced up...hall of shame is waiting for u roger boy...

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:45 am

Clemens' actions not very convincing

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7649392

by Michael Rosenberg
Detroit Free Press columnist Michael Rosenberg is a contributor to FOXSports.com. An archive of his Free Press columns can be found here.
Updated: January 7, 2008, 11:30 PM EST 186 comments
RSS digg blog email print
Roger Clemens once threw a pitch at Mike Piazza's head, then acted like the wronged party. So it's no surprise that Clemens, the ultimate competitor, is at it again. He is throwing pitch after pitch at former trainer Brian McNamee, trying to knock down McNamee's credibility.

The first pitch came Sunday on "60 Minutes," in an interview with Mike Wallace.

The second pitch came Monday, with word of a defamation lawsuit against McNamee, and a press conference that was supposed to make Clemens look like a hero and make McNamee look like a desperate liar.

Unfortunately, this pitch missed McNamee completely.

You can keep throwing, Roger. But you're going to have to bring a lot more heat.

Monday's highlight was an audiotape of Clemens talking to McNamee. This was supposed to help vindicate Clemens. To me, it made Clemens look even guiltier.

Ever since the Mitchell Report came out, baseball fans around the country have asked one question: why would Brian McNamee fabricate these terrible accusations about his buddy, Clemens? It made no sense.

Clemens' attorney, Rusty Hardin, has reached into his bag of lawyer tricks and pulled out a great one. Essentially, Clemens' suit airs the accusation that federal investigators grossly abused their authority, without actually leveling that accusation. Clemens and his team argue that they heard that from McNamee — so if it's not true, then hey, blame Mac.

This provides Clemens with legal cover. And it theoretically answers the big question: McNamee was pressured!

It's a smart legal tactic. But it is not particularly believable. For one, McNamee faces serious legal ramifications if he lied to investigators — therefore, his greatest incentive is to tell the truth.

And for another... well, let's go to the audiotape.

Clemens recorded a recent phone conversation with McNamee. The recording was played at the press conference, ostensibly to help Clemens in the court of public opinion. On the recording, McNamee sounds heartbroken about turning in his friend and desperate to renew his relationship with Clemens.

And yet, even in that fragile emotional state, in a conversation he apparently did not know was being recorded, Brian McNamee still never said Clemens was clean. He never came close.

Here is how he explained his testimony to Clemens: "All I did was what I thought was right... I never thought it was right but I thought I had no other choice, put it that way."

I guess we're supposed to hear that and figure that McNamee felt he had no choice because he was coerced. Sorry, but that's not what I heard. I heard a man who thought it was wrong to rat on his pal, but he did it because he was cornered. He had no other choice but to tell the truth.

I also heard McNamee say, "Tell me what you want me to do."

And yet, when Clemens said "I need somebody to tell the truth, Mac" and "I didn't do this, Mac," McNamee never offered to absolve Clemens. He never agreed that Clemens was innocent — even though he might have thought this was a private conversation.

In other words, Brian McNamee is sticking by his story: That he injected Roger Clemens with steroids several times.

Clemens's next pitch will be in Washington, D.C.

"I'm going to Congress and I'm going to tell the truth," Clemens said.

Well, we'll see about that. Clemens' lawyers might talk him out of it, or they might convince him to avoid answering certain questions because of the pending litigation.

Either way, Clemens faces an uphill battle here. As he said himself: "How do you prove a negative?"

You don't prove it.

You just try to convince the world.

Roger Clemens still has a long way to go.

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:11 am

OJ never passed a lie detector test--you can google the CNN transcript where F. Lee Bailey notes OJ was taking one when his attorney's pulled the plug and OJ never took another.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0006/07/lkl.00.html

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:14 am

"Too much rush to judgement by this country". Hahaha. This coming from a guy who was quick to critisize A-Rod before and after he opted out. Sweet work there Hankie. I guess he doesn't want anything to happen to good ol Rog because he wants another overpaid steroid user on the current Yankee squad. Sweet deal. Old man Clementine already changed his story once, first when the Mitchell Report came out he said he McNamee never injected anything into his body...then just recently he admitted he did (with lidocane and B-12). Which is it????? How is anyone supposed to believe this guy when he already changed his story? Just fess up and take it in the ####....err i mean take it like a man.

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:18 am

BASEBALL: EAST COAST OUTPOST OF RED SOX NATION SHOWS ITS COLOURS

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080108.WORLDSERIES08/TPStory/Sports

OLIVER MOORE

January 8, 2008

Halifax -- A taste of Fenway Park came to the Nova Scotia legislature yesterday as the World Series trophy arrived on a visit secured by the rabid fans of this "outpost of Red Sox Nation."

There was no beer in the elegant room at Province House, and instead of the Green Monster, the gathering was watched over by huge portraits of long-dead monarchs. But team mascot Wally worked the crowd, the smell of hot dogs filled the air and team loyalties were laid bare.

"Many Nova Scotians consider the Red Sox to be our home team," Premier Rodney MacDonald said, sparking a burst of cheering and a shouted criticism of the archrival New York Yankees.

There was the infant in a Red Sox cap, the senior who has been a fan for a half-century and a guy whose shirt said he would cheer for only two teams: Boston, and any team that beat the Yankees.
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Most important, there was the trophy. Won last year by the Red Sox - their second championship in four years after an 86-year drought - the most coveted prize in professional baseball had never before come to Halifax.

"It feels just great," long-time supporter Darrell Corbett, 73, said after touching the trophy for the first time in his life.

Wearing a baseball-patterned tie and a Red Sox cap and pushing his oxygen tank, Corbett said he'd been a fan since 1952. He'd doubted that the local Bluenose Bosox Brotherhood would be able to persuade the Red Sox to bring the trophy, but when they did, there was "no question" that he'd come to see it.

Don Hyslop, the co-founder of the Brotherhood, admitted that they had to resort to tactics verging on harassment to get the Red Sox onside.

"We inundated them with e-mails," he said. "My wife joked that they'd put a block on my e-mail address. All we could do was try to convince them it would be a worthy trip, that we had a fan base here who'll be very appreciative."

It worked.

Hyslop was up early yesterday, nervously checking the weather reports. The flight was a bit late and he was at the airport in plenty of time to see the trophy carried through the terminal. It had been uncrated at customs, he said, and "even Yankees fans" wanted to take pictures as it went past.

First stop for the trophy was the invitation-only gathering at the legislature. There were several other private events last night, but the public will have their chance today. Visits to a local hospital, sports hall of fame and mall are scheduled before the trophy is expected to return to Boston this evenin

g

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:19 am

Mackanin Hired By Yankees

http://mets.scout.com/a.z?s=228&p=2&c=717970

Pete Mackanin, the Cincinnati Reds’ interim manager for the final months of 2007, accepted a job as a scout with the New York Yankees on Monday afternoon. Mackanin enjoyed success after replacing Jerry Narron, and hoped to remain as the Reds’ full-time manager. The Cincinnati organization, however, instead opted to employ a proven manager with more experience, signing veteran skipper Dusty Baker.

Pete Mackanin, the Cincinnati Reds’ interim manager for the final months of 2007, accepted a job as a scout with the New York Yankees on Monday afternoon. Mackanin, who replaced Jerry Narron after he was fired on July 1, hoped to remain as the Reds’ full-time manager.

The Cincinnati organization, however, instead opted to employ a proven manager with more experience, signing veteran skipper Dusty Baker in early-October. Mackanin, disappointed by the Reds’ decision, was offered a position to remain on in Cincinnati, but refused, saying that it was in his best interest to move on.

After playing for five different teams in a nine-year major league career, Mackanin has spent the last two decades coaching in the minor leagues. Following a two-year stint managing the Nashville Sounds, he was hired as the bench coach for the Pittsburgh Pirates prior to spring training in 2003. Two years later, when Pittsburgh fired Lloyd McClendon, he earned his first shot to manage at baseball’s highest level, guiding the Pirates to a 12-14 record.

His next move brought him to Cincinnati, originally serving as an advanced scout, similar to the position he will fulfill in New York. But in the aftermath of the Cincinnati’s dismal first-half—51 losses, the highest total in all of Major League Baseball—he helped right the ship, keeping the Reds’ nucleus motivated as the franchise finished two games over .500 (41-39) under Mackanin’s leadership.

Due to the Reds’ second-half success, Mackanin was serious considered to stay, according to Cincinnati general manager Wayne Krivsky, who remains Mackanin’s close friend. But by adding Baker—a move met with mixed reactions in baseball circles, due to Baker’s poor track record of handling young pitchers, evidenced by his experience with Mark Prior and Kerry Wood during his time with Chicago—though, the Reds gain a marketable leader in the dugout popular with players. While many have questioned the signing, citing the need for a conservative manger who will treat the arms of top pitching prospects Homer Bailey, Johnny Cueto and Travis Woods delicately, he also handles veterans well, instantly commanding respect in the clubhouse. In addition, the hire was strongly endorsed by fan favorite outfielder Ken Griffey Jr.

In Mackanin, 56, though, New York, who has been courting him since the winter meetings in Nashville, adds another excellent talent evaluator to its baseball operations department.

“We had a nice discussion,” Mackanin said Monday of the Yankees’ interest. "Fortunately they were looking for somebody, and I fit the bill."

Before he retires, however, he wants to return to the dugout some day. Whether or not his wish is ever fulfilled, of course, is still up in the air.

Erik Bedard (AP)

Bedard Rumors: Baltimore Orioles left-hander Erik Bedard, the topic of numerous trade rumors this winter, is reportedly close to being dealt to the Seattle Mariners. Seattle has reignited talks, agreeing to include Adam Jones, one of the top outfield prospects in the game, in a potential deal, according to numerous media reports this afternoon. The Mariners already (allegedly) upgraded their starting rotation earlier this offseason, signing right-hander Carlos Silva, but by adding Bedard, 23, Seattle could realistically compete for the American League West division title next year.

The Reds, however, are still in the hunt for Bedard, too. The Orioles’ ace enjoyed a strong season in ’07, posting a 13-5 record and 3.15 earned run average last season, and would fit nicely in a alongside Bronson Arroyo and Aaron Harang at the top of the Cincinnati rotation.

You can reach Tyler Hissey by sending an email to TylerHissey@gmail.com.

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:25 am

Gomez is the short-term center field position.
cmathewson | 01/07/08 - 5:45 pm | #

Gravatar One thing you also have to consider with Ellsbury along with that he gives a CF, is that he provides a stable bat in the leadoff spot. That is something any team lacking power needs to have. I also question why trade the best pitcher in baseball for a potential best pitcher in baseball, why not just keep the sure thing? If you are going to make the decision to trade Santana, shouldn't you upgrade a different area of the ballclub?, otherwise you are just looking to get back to where you started before a trade.
Dourgh | 01/07/08 - 8:26 pm | #

Gravatar Thanks, I've been dying for you to do this!

You don't seem to think much of Lester. I'd love to hear your full critique of him, too.

Given your comp of Ellsbury and Lofton, doesn't it make ya think, why not just sign Kenny Lofton?

Ellsbury's OPB of .394 does make you drool a bit, but trading based on that is almost certainly buying high.

But my impression is Lowrie and Masterson are better than the Yankees' throw-ins offered so far, so it's no easy call. But it would sure be nice to have the best young pitcher in baseball, again!

If only the Yanks would throw in Kennedy and/or Austin Jackson... If only George wasn't senile, so Cashman would have been fired... I hate that the Yanks having all the money AND a smart GM!
by jiminy | Homepage | 01/07/08 - 8:56 pm | #

Gravatar To Dourgh -- put it this way. Who would you rather have: Santana, or Hughes AND $150 million worth of other guys?

The answer for the Twins, and frankly to me too, is odds are you will get more value from the cash than from Santana -- so you're getting Hughes basically as a freebie.

Okay you're also giving up one year of Santana in that deal -- so maybe it's, who would you rather have: one year of Santana, or seven from Hughes--AND Melky and some other players thrown in too?

But if you're talking about keeping Santana, yuou have to think of him as Santana MINUS $150 million you could have used for other players, whereas Hughes is virtually free for several years.
by jiminy | Homepage | 01/07/08 - 9:14 pm | #

Gravatar There's an overwhelming likelihood that Ellsbury has a more like Willy Taveras, Brian L Hunter, or Roger Cedeno than Johnny Damon or Kenny Lofton. I'm not sure I want to trade Johan Santana for a guy who might become Jason Tyner.
7yr/$140mil | 01/07/08 - 11:17 pm | #

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:27 am

Underclassmen entering 2008 draft

ESPN.com

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft08/news/story?id=3177600

Updated: January 2, 2008, 4:00 PM ET

Players declared for 2008 NFL Draft
Name School Position Year
Branden Albert Virginia OG Junior
Martellus Bennett Texas A&M TE Junior
Davone Bess Hawaii WR Junior
Calais Campbell Miami DE Junior
Jamaal Charles Texas RB Junior
Ryan Clady Boise State OL Junior
Anthony Collins Kansas OT Junior
Jermichael Finley Texas TE Sophomore
Brandon Flowers Virginia Tech CB Junior
James Hardy Indiana WR Junior
Derrick Harvey Florida DE Junior
Erin Henderson Maryland LB Junior
Jack Ikegwuonu Wisconsin CB Junior
Kevin Smith UCF RB Junior
Taj Smith Syracuse WR Junior
Aqib Talib Kansas CB Junior

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:43 am

BA's MFY top 10 prospects

Tags : None
1 Joba Chamberlain, rhp
2 Austin Jackson, of
3 Jose Tabata, of
4 Ian Kennedy, rhp
5 Alan Horne, rhp
6 Jesus Montero, c
7 Jeff Marquez, rhp
8 Brett Gardner, of
9 Ross Ohlendorf, rhp
10 Andrew Brackman, rhp

The list is very strong up top but then seems to fall off a cliff after #6. I found this surprising since they have some good depth similar to the Sox.

What happened to Humberto Sanchez?
Shouldn't he be just about recovered from TJ surgery whereas Brackman just had his?

Keep in mind that Jackson also hit 6 of his HRs in July. His July stat line, .357/.402/.643 He certainly was more productive during his time in Tampa but all his stats are tremendously skewed by a mind boggling July. Austin Jackson isn't going to put up an OPS of .800 next season, I'm calling it now. mahalo
~Chach~

Having Brett Gardner as your 8th best prospect is embarassing. Yankees apparently compare him to Jacoby Ellsbury but I don't see how any reasonably intelligent person could be fooled into thinking of him as a 4th OF at best, His power is jsut not there... his slg .331 at triple AAA. He is a year older than Ellsbury. basically his only virtue beyond speed is being patient. However with his utter lack of power. pitchers will just go right after him in the bigs and thats going to drop off alot there also.

Horne is another guy I think is overrated. Yes he is something of a prospect but I don't feel he belongs near any top 100 lists. Yes he has a good fastball but it's not sitting at 94-95 like many seem to believe. Everything I have read on his breaking pitches says they are inconsistent and solid yet, nothing special. Most importanly his control is simply not good. he crapped out at the end of the year and finished with 30bbs and a 4.70era after the All-star break. Numbers that seem very much in line with th rest of his career. He also just turned 25 years old. too old for a top pitching prospect with bad control and no plus pitch other than a fastball.

A MF|Y friend of mine tried to compare him to Jon papelbon, who also was his age in AA. but beyond the age that comparison is awful as paps was better in every area, save possibly a draw in fastball velo.

Gotta stop writing too early in the morning

agreed about gardner, i still dont know why BA puts him on these lists.even if you fear injury concerns i cant think of a reason id rather have gardner over betances, or melancon, or even humberto sanchez.
while they are still somewhat inconsistent (the slider more so than the curve), both horne's curve and slider have shown to be plus when they are on, which is a little different than nothing special. he has also been praised for the improvement in his changeup giving him 4 average to plus pitches (his EL scouting report said that all 4 can be plus at times)

and on jackson, we have to remember that he was one of the top players of his age-group througout his baseball life, and when in HS focused on basketball over baseball. the yankees made a mechanical adjustment to his swing in tampa which was part of the reason for his turn around. id still have tabata and probably kennedy above him, but he has always had very good tools and he produced in the FSL and HWL

And he put up a near .400 BABIP and had an out of this world July, hence the super inflated numbers. If he hit well but not superb, he would probably be like the #5 prospect or so. I like Jackson, don't get me wrong. I think he may settle into a .280-.300 area, draw a few walks and hit for a good power clip. Combined with his reported good defense and you've got a good player on your hands. But because he went bananas in Tampa and Hawaii, every Yankees fan seems to be slurpin his stump and I am a natural reactionary. Because of his HWL performance, he's probably going to start at AA and I think he's going to be overmatched. He isn't going to get a .495 BABIP coupled with a 11% LD%. Plus, his walk rate regressed when he got to Tampa but slowly came up as the year went on so I expect him to get off to a slow start drawing walks.

His stat line in August is what I think is a reasonable projection for him : .301/.384/.495. A good defensive CF who can draw walks and hit for some power, that's pretty damn good. This, at least to me, is what his ceiling is going to look like. Which is good because that's Grady Sizemore good. mahalo
~Chach~

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:47 am

Quote:
Fastball: Guerra demonstrated very consistent control of his fastball that saw a significant increase in velocity during his second season. He previously threw his fastball in the upper-80s, but at times this year he did hit 92-93 MPH on the gun.

Quote:
Other Pitches: Guerra’s top secondary pitch is his changeup. The quality of his off-speed pitch speaks volumes about his maturity as a pitcher because it takes many young hurlers years to develop a changeup in the same class as his. His slow, calm delivery deceives hitters as the changeup’s movement frequently ties up hitters. He tops off his repertoire with a developing curveball that he continues to improve. He was very inconsistent with the pitch during his rookie season but he made strides with it last season, flipping his breaking ball over the plate with greater frequency. However, he still lacks some confidence to throw the curveball when behind in the count.

http://mets.scout.com/2/715813.html

Guerra is my favorite prospect in the system that everyone has heard of. All he needs is a few more on the FB, help with the CB, and then we have something serious. The CU is already there. I once read the Mets were going to have him ditch the CB, and incorporate something else, but that hasn't happened.

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:49 am

Thermos
View profile
More options Jan 7, 4:32 pm
Newsgroups: alt.sports.baseball.ny-yankees
From: Thermos <cfb...@adelphia.net>
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:32:38 -0800 (PST)
Local: Mon, Jan 7 2008 4:32 pm
Subject: Re: Baseball America's Yankees Top 10
Reply | Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
On Jan 7, 4:12 pm, Tom K <mrycl...@gmail.com> wrote:

- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> > > 1. Joba Chamberlain (RHP) - 9B
> > > 2. Jose Tabata (OF) - 9C
> > > 3. Ian Kennedy (RHP) - 8B
> > > 4. Austin Jackson (OF) - 9C
> > > 5. Alan Horne (RHP) - 8C
> > > 6. Andrew Brackman (RHP) - 9D
> > > 7. Dellin Betances (RHP) - 9D
> > > 8. Jesus Montero (C/1B) - 9D
> > > 9. Humberto Sanchez (RHP) - 8C
> > > 10. Jeff Marquez (RHP) - 8C
> > > 11. Kevin Whelan (RHP) - 8C
> > > 12. George Kontos (RHP) - 8D
> > > 13. Ross Ohlendorf (RHP) - 7B
> > > 14. Shelley Duncan (OF/1B) - 7C
> > > 15. Kelvin DeLeon (OF) - 9E

> > Very interesting list and one that looks far more realistic than
> > BA's. I wonder how much in-person research he did in compiling this
> > list and the evaluaitons contained in it.- Hide quoted text -

> I like the "player potential/probability" thing. We can all go
> around talking about the high ceilings of certain players; adding in a
> "probability" variable to me puts it all into a better perspective.
> Kevin DeLeon is surely one of the least talked about prospects in the
> system - even people who follow it closely may not even know much
> about him (myself included)-

Patrick Teale did a couple of nice stories on Kelvin at PP, including
a brief write-up during the Dominican instructs and a more detailed
"scouting report" before Chirstmas. Great example of why a
subscription to Pinstripes Plus is well worth the money - Patrick
spends time watching these guys in person at the camps, instructs and
minor league complex. Years ago, I spent a lot of time reading a
number of sources and trying to discern which ones had the best
judgment, who had seen these players the most, etc. Now I rely a lot
more on people like Patrick for information. PP's rankings did not
include players signed this June, so DeLeon was not in their top 50,
but I suspect he'd have been fairly high if he were. I recall that
Kevin Goldstein had him in his Top 10 (or was it 11?) prospects in the
system.

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:54 am

Hardballtimes- Best outfield arms of 2007

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/best-outfield-arms-of-2007/

Opps Kill+ Hold+ Runs Runs/200

Cabrera_Melky 185 207 99 4.2 4.5

Crisp_Coco 148 24 105 -0.1 -0.2

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:55 am

From November 2006:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/11/10/mcnamee.trainer/index.html

The McNamee that Down knows is a solid family man from a down-to-earth working class neighborhood, Breezy Point, Queens, where just about everyone else works as a fireman or cop. McNamee himself was an undercover police officer for 3 1/2 years with an amazing record for making arrests and who gathered citations for excellence.

He's probably the best police officer I've ever been around," said New York City Police Lt. Tim Lyon, McNamee's former partner. Lyon has risen to head a detective squad in a Brooklyn precinct but said McNamee "lapped me" in terms of arrests and would have been a captain or better, maybe an inspector, had he stayed on the force. (McNamee says he left the force to take a job with the Yankees, and later left them to join Toronto.)

The thing that Lyon couldn't get over was how hard McNamee worked and how loyal he was. "He was probably loyal to a fault," Lyon said.

Now, does this sound like the guy who would get tricked by Roger freakin' Clemens into spilling the beans on a taped conversation?? I don't know...

RedMagma Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:22 pm

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Gossage voted into baseball Hall; Rice just misses
ESPN.com news services

Tuesday, January 8, 2008

NEW YORK -- Rich "Goose" Gossage became only the fifth relief pitcher elected to the Hall of Fame, earning baseball's highest honor Tuesday on his ninth try on the ballot. Gossage was listed on 466 ballots, or 85.8 percent, to qualify for enshrinement in his ninth year on the ballot. Former Boston Red Sox outfielder Jim Rice was on 72.2 percent of the ballots, just 16 votes shy of the 75 percent needed. He has one more year of eligibility left on the ballot. Last year, Gossage was on 71.2 per ...

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* Comments (1-44)
o
jnr98
jnr98 (1 minute ago)
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so Beemer, why is Gossage a (your insult) and why isn't he HOF worthy? Explain that
o
travo
travo (2 minutes ago)
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About time the Goose got in. He was way over qualified.

http://boyofsummer. blogspot.com/2007/12 /cooperstown-calling -notes-on-hall-of.ht ml
o
Beemer330i
Beemer330i (2 minutes ago)
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Jnr - WOW - You really got me there. D.o.r.k.
o
spiritsunami
spiritsunami (2 minutes ago)
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UCFBurnsy--lol, good one. And oasis, were you actually WATCHING the game at the time? Rice is a Hall-of-Famer, unquestionably. Until the Hall of Fame discussions had begun, I'd never even heard of Tim Raines.
o
jnr98
jnr98 (4 minutes ago)
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Beemer3301: why would you say that?

PS: Hear this joke: What's the difference between porcupines and BMWs?

A: With porcupines, the pr!cks are on the outside.
o
bohndawg
bohndawg (4 minutes ago)
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Clearly, the fact that Todd Stottlemyre,Chuck Knoblauch, and Travis Fryman received votes proves that many BBWAA writers do not deserve to have a vote.
o
Pats411
Pats411 (4 minutes ago)
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Jim Rice deserves to be in! The voters should be ashamed.
o
spiritsunami
spiritsunami (4 minutes ago)
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Rice was the most feared hitter in baseball for a long period of time. Hopefully he'll get in next year, and if not, the Veteran's Committee will no doubt put him in as soon as they can. The players, his peers, know what he could do.
o
cojaxon
cojaxon (5 minutes ago)
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The Baseball Hall of Fame is a joke. The sportswriters who are the gate keepers never played, but yet they get to vote on who is the best in the game.
o
WoodyIsMyDad
WoodyIsMyDad (5 minutes ago)
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And about stinking time Gossage got in. The guy is arguably the most dominant reliever of all time, maybe even more than Rivera. Absolutely no excuse for him not being in, ESPECIALLY considering the inferior Sutter somehow got elected before him.
o
UCFBurnsy
UCFBurnsy (5 minutes ago)
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It's racism! Someone get Jemele on the phone and give her a passing idea of who these players are so she can come to a major conclusion based on nothing but their race. Jemele for queen of the world!
o
Rocco1022
Rocco1022 (5 minutes ago)
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Rice was robbed !
o
oasiserfede
oasiserfede (5 minutes ago)
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Congrats to Goose, he deserves it. Nonetheless the BBWAA has lost all credibility. Blyleven still not in and only 24% for Raines, who was twice the player that Rice was......it's a joke!
o
Beemer330i
Beemer330i (6 minutes ago)
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Gossage is a d.o.u.c.h.e he doesn't deserve a hall of fame induction.
o
ScottGW5364
ScottGW5364 (6 minutes ago)
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Gossage deserved it, but Rice not making it is a joke. He was, with Schmidt, the best power hitter in baseball for a decade.
o
jbcaproni
jbcaproni (6 minutes ago)
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Rice is done. This was his best chance to get elected. Next year will have a better field of candidates and he will get lost in the shuffle.

Too bad. He was unquestionably one of the most feared hitters of his era.
o
rastaseed0731
rastaseed0731 (6 minutes ago)
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It just shows that sportswriters are petty babies. Maybe if Rice would have kissed your butt all those years we would have been beloved. Screw em Jim, your a hall of famer in most eyes.
o
WoodyIsMyDad
WoodyIsMyDad (7 minutes ago)
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"It just plain pathetic that rice is not in. the sportwriters need to be taken off and have a committe that can vote with there brains not there bias"

Bias? The guy greatly benefited by hitting at Fenway. He was pretty average away from home. And all this "he was the most feared" is belied by the stats -- he was never among the AL leaders in intentional walks when he played. He was a very good hitter in his time, especially at home, and a lousy defender. And his career was relatively short. You know who else was a very good hitter in his time, a lousy defender, and had a relatively short career? Albert Belle. And he's not going to get in (nor do I think he should). Neither should Rice.

The real travesty is that a guy who had 60 shutouts -- more shutouts than most pitchers even have complete games these days, and one of the highest totals ever, along with a ton of strikeouts and darn good career ERA, is continuously passed over because he didn't have the "ability" to make his crappy teams score more runs for him. Terrible.
o
jnr98
jnr98 (7 minutes ago)
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KLaw crushing Rice on ESPNEWS
o
skid
skid (8 minutes ago)
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These idiot "expert" baseball writers are ####-bags!!! Andre Dawson gets hosed again! Power, speed, defense...ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
o
LordArtex
LordArtex (8 minutes ago)
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Outrageous that Jim Rice was not elected. Yet Tony Perez who had weaker numbers over 6 more seasons was considered a shoe-in. Obviously being the dominant hitter in your time era is not a criteria, but overall steroid-inflated numbers are. 6 top 5 MVP votes, HR, Triple, RBI crowns, league MVP. Outrageous. Sports writers should lose the right to vote, put it in the hands of an appointed commitee.
o
spiritsunami
spiritsunami (8 minutes ago)
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Yeah, I'm disappointed that Rice didn't get in, also--partly because I'm a Red Sox fan, but also because he was a great hitter and I kind of like the idea of a Hall of Fame class consisting of a Yankee and a Red Sox. (Yeah, I know that Gossage pitched for other teams, but he's most commonly identified as a Yankee.) Boston's power bat and New York's power arm. I love it. Sadly, that's not happening.
o
jesterzz
jesterzz (8 minutes ago)
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Rice should have done loads of steroids like Clemens. He could have had maybe 600 HRs instead of just under 400.
o
kmack1959
kmack1959 (8 minutes ago)
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It's total crap that Gossage gets in while Lee Smith is still waiting on the sidelines - Probably 'cause Gossage was a Skankee .
o
tcab2880
tcab2880 (9 minutes ago)
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What about Trammal and Jack Morris? Trammal was the leader on an incredible championship team in 84 just becasue neither pitched in a big market doesn't mean they shouldn't get a little more respect...

But Congrats To Goose, and I hope Rice gets in next year
o
Schadenfreude2007
Schadenfreude2007 (9 minutes ago)
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These would be the same writers who on the one hand cry crocodile tears about steriods and HGH, and on the other hand, vote HGH-swilling Jason Giambi comeback player of the year. Goose deserves to be in, but so does Rice.
o
AndyGee63
AndyGee63 (9 minutes ago)
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Go Goose! Go Yankees!
o
garnet1
garnet1 (10 minutes ago)
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too bad Jimmy
o
fds63
fds63 (10 minutes ago)
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Good for the Goose!
o
tmohr00
tmohr00 (10 minutes ago)
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Tim Raines gets 24% - ridiculous.
o
jnr98
jnr98 (11 minutes ago)
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YES!!!! Way to go, #54. It's about time, BBWAA
o
marramik4113
marramik4113 (11 minutes ago)
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I'm a Yankee fan and I'am shock that Jim Rice didn't get in, I thought this was his best chance
o
Scuba Steve 1976
Scuba Steve 1976 (11 minutes ago)
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Total crap that rice gets left out another year....
o
jeremy517
jeremy517 (11 minutes ago)
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Goose pitched very well in 2007, so it is understandable that 10% of the voters feel he is now worthy after they felt that he was not worthy last year.
o
bravesfan_1012000
bravesfan_1012000 (12 minutes ago)
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There is a goose loose in the Hall! Congratulations to Rich.
o
sportcork
sportcork (13 minutes ago)
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It just plain pathetic that rice is not in. the sportwriters need to be taken off and have a committe that can vote with there brains not there bias
o
wana_be_gm
wana_be_gm (13 minutes ago)
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With Raines as the only other legit HOF candidate on the ballot, the writters finally gave the goose what he has deserved for 9 years...
o
wildlobo71
wildlobo71 (13 minutes ago)
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Way to go Goose!!! Partying in Colorado Springs tonight!
o
cjmorello
cjmorello (13 minutes ago)
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Grats to Goose, too bad for Jim. I have been torn for years on his candidacy, but felt that it was time to let him in.
o
jfox67
jfox67 (14 minutes ago)
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Atrocious that Rice was not elected. Goose deserved it.
o
zerofactor
zerofactor (14 minutes ago)
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I can't believe Rice keeps getting passed over.
o
nookiemastr
nookiemastr (14 minutes ago)
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all i gotta say is......about damn time!!!!!
o
tmschultze
tmschultze (15 minutes ago)
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Good for him. Well deserved!
o
AntOrtiz33
AntOrtiz33 (15 minutes ago)
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Close for Rice, probably next year. Congrats Goose.

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Re: E-mail: oconnor@northjersey.com

Re: E-mail: oconnor@northjersey.com

Re: E-mail: oconnor@northjersey.com

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Re: E-mail: oconnor@northjersey.com