Yankees - Santana
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Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:23 am
*Are the Yankees going to do what they always do and overpay for their starters or develop their own?*
Why can’t they do both? If Santana stays a Twin through ‘08, they could sign him to replace Moose and Pettitte, and you’ve got a rotation that’s 4/5 homegrown in Wang, Kennedy, Hughes, Chamberlain and Santana.
Also as for Melky, he seems like a nice kid but really I would have no problem giving him up for any sort of pitching.
Maybe Im a little biased, but based on his minor league stats and multiple minor league rankings, I dont think Lester is that good to head any package. I think the Yanks can put a package together headed by Ian, that doesn’t include Phil, that exceeds the Lester package.
Kennedy is just flat out better than Lester
Ian has a better ERA, Win/Loss record, H9, HR/9, BB/9, K/9, WHIP…every minor league stat you put the two head to head in Ian come out on top. Then factor in their brief major league stats and you find more of the same.
Lester – 23 years old…32-31…3.33 ERA…7.99 H/9…0.56 HR/9…3.78 BB/9…8.31 K/9…1.31 WHIP
Ian – 22 years old…12-3…1.87 ERA…5.62 H/9…0.36 HR/9…3.14 BB/9…9.97 K/9…0.97 WHIP
Melky is better than Coco, cheaper and younger
Last two years
Coco
06 - 26 years old..413 AB…264 Avg..702 OPS..67 K’s
07 - 27 years old..526 AB…268 Avg..712 OPS..84 K’s
Melky
06 - 21 years old..460 AB..280 Avg..751 OPS..59 K’s
07 - 22 years old..545 AB..273 Avg..718 OPS..68 K’s
Justin Masterson ( BOS )
minor league totals
22 years old..15-9..3.74 ERA..185in..148K’s
just came off a season in AA that he went 4-3..4.34 ERA
Jeff Marquez ( NY )
22 years old…35-32…3.40 ERA..485in..345K’s
just came off a season in AA that he went 15-9..3.65 ERA
Jed Lowrie ( BOS )
23 year old SS…1072 AB…291 Avg…834 OPS..20 HR..14 SB
Alberto Gonzalez ( NY )
24 years old SS…1613 AB…277 Avg…715 OPS..10 HR..38 SB Gold Glove caliber defense, better than Lowrie
Other than Lowrie, the rest of the Yanks prospects are better than the Sox prospects. To make up for the difference the Yanks could also throw in a 5th player.
Marcos Vechionacci - 21 year old 3B - 16 HR - 40 SB
Or to seal the deal =
Daniel McCutchen
24 years old…16-4…172 IP…2.41 ERA…1.01 WHIP…133 K’s
So the Red Sox best offer.
Lester
Coco
Masterson
Lowrie
is not as good as a similar package the Yanks can put together
Ian
Melk
Marquez
Gonzalez and/or McCutchen and/or Vechionacci.
Thats not just opinion Red Sox fans, those are facts. We should not include Phil in any package.
Bucholtz = Hughes
Hughes 21…25-8…2.03 ERA…275in…311K’s..66BB..0.86 WHIP
Clay 22…19-10…2.46 ERA…285in…356K’s..77BB..1.00 WHIP
If the Twins are not demanding Bucholz from the Sox, why are they demanding Phil from the Yanks? We have secondary packages that exceed the Sox offers without including Joba, Phil or Cano.
There is some BS going on here and Im glad the Yanks pulled out. If the Twins want to deal Johan..
Ian
Melk
Marquez
McCutchen
Is the highest the Yanks should go. That package would only be beat by the Sox including Lester, Ellsbury, Masterson and Lowrie…which I dont see them doing.
this one’s tough now. at the beginning i was all for giving up hughes. now though, i’m on the fence.
santana is the best in baseball and will be for a couple more years at least. money isn’t that big of an issue and his durability shouldn’t be an issue. (he throws mostly fast/change and doesn’t go over 120 pitches/game.)
hughes wasn’t lights out like chamberlain was last year, but he had a couple of great outings. he also had a few terrible outings which is expected. the thing that impresses me are his intangibles. he handles pressure well. and yes, playing in new york is different from playing in minnesota/etc. he can have a terrible outing, then a great outing. hughes has “it”.
so now, i’m on the fence. i hope cash pushes to keep hughes and only offers kennedy / cabrera / +1. i don’t think boston is very interested unless they get a steal. i don’t think we should offer too much since santana probably only wants to go to us or boston.
if a gun was pointed to my head, i’d have to give up hughes / cabrera / marquez. why? santana is already an ace, he is left-handed, and we have a deep farm system. we may not get another hughes, but we already have a chamberlain, a kennedy, and several more who could easily be just as good.
go cashman!
Why can’t they do both? If Santana stays a Twin through ‘08, they could sign him to replace Moose and Pettitte, and you’ve got a rotation that’s 4/5 homegrown in Wang, Kennedy, Hughes, Chamberlain and Santana.
Also as for Melky, he seems like a nice kid but really I would have no problem giving him up for any sort of pitching.
Maybe Im a little biased, but based on his minor league stats and multiple minor league rankings, I dont think Lester is that good to head any package. I think the Yanks can put a package together headed by Ian, that doesn’t include Phil, that exceeds the Lester package.
Kennedy is just flat out better than Lester
Ian has a better ERA, Win/Loss record, H9, HR/9, BB/9, K/9, WHIP…every minor league stat you put the two head to head in Ian come out on top. Then factor in their brief major league stats and you find more of the same.
Lester – 23 years old…32-31…3.33 ERA…7.99 H/9…0.56 HR/9…3.78 BB/9…8.31 K/9…1.31 WHIP
Ian – 22 years old…12-3…1.87 ERA…5.62 H/9…0.36 HR/9…3.14 BB/9…9.97 K/9…0.97 WHIP
Melky is better than Coco, cheaper and younger
Last two years
Coco
06 - 26 years old..413 AB…264 Avg..702 OPS..67 K’s
07 - 27 years old..526 AB…268 Avg..712 OPS..84 K’s
Melky
06 - 21 years old..460 AB..280 Avg..751 OPS..59 K’s
07 - 22 years old..545 AB..273 Avg..718 OPS..68 K’s
Justin Masterson ( BOS )
minor league totals
22 years old..15-9..3.74 ERA..185in..148K’s
just came off a season in AA that he went 4-3..4.34 ERA
Jeff Marquez ( NY )
22 years old…35-32…3.40 ERA..485in..345K’s
just came off a season in AA that he went 15-9..3.65 ERA
Jed Lowrie ( BOS )
23 year old SS…1072 AB…291 Avg…834 OPS..20 HR..14 SB
Alberto Gonzalez ( NY )
24 years old SS…1613 AB…277 Avg…715 OPS..10 HR..38 SB Gold Glove caliber defense, better than Lowrie
Other than Lowrie, the rest of the Yanks prospects are better than the Sox prospects. To make up for the difference the Yanks could also throw in a 5th player.
Marcos Vechionacci - 21 year old 3B - 16 HR - 40 SB
Or to seal the deal =
Daniel McCutchen
24 years old…16-4…172 IP…2.41 ERA…1.01 WHIP…133 K’s
So the Red Sox best offer.
Lester
Coco
Masterson
Lowrie
is not as good as a similar package the Yanks can put together
Ian
Melk
Marquez
Gonzalez and/or McCutchen and/or Vechionacci.
Thats not just opinion Red Sox fans, those are facts. We should not include Phil in any package.
Bucholtz = Hughes
Hughes 21…25-8…2.03 ERA…275in…311K’s..66BB..0.86 WHIP
Clay 22…19-10…2.46 ERA…285in…356K’s..77BB..1.00 WHIP
If the Twins are not demanding Bucholz from the Sox, why are they demanding Phil from the Yanks? We have secondary packages that exceed the Sox offers without including Joba, Phil or Cano.
There is some BS going on here and Im glad the Yanks pulled out. If the Twins want to deal Johan..
Ian
Melk
Marquez
McCutchen
Is the highest the Yanks should go. That package would only be beat by the Sox including Lester, Ellsbury, Masterson and Lowrie…which I dont see them doing.
this one’s tough now. at the beginning i was all for giving up hughes. now though, i’m on the fence.
santana is the best in baseball and will be for a couple more years at least. money isn’t that big of an issue and his durability shouldn’t be an issue. (he throws mostly fast/change and doesn’t go over 120 pitches/game.)
hughes wasn’t lights out like chamberlain was last year, but he had a couple of great outings. he also had a few terrible outings which is expected. the thing that impresses me are his intangibles. he handles pressure well. and yes, playing in new york is different from playing in minnesota/etc. he can have a terrible outing, then a great outing. hughes has “it”.
so now, i’m on the fence. i hope cash pushes to keep hughes and only offers kennedy / cabrera / +1. i don’t think boston is very interested unless they get a steal. i don’t think we should offer too much since santana probably only wants to go to us or boston.
if a gun was pointed to my head, i’d have to give up hughes / cabrera / marquez. why? santana is already an ace, he is left-handed, and we have a deep farm system. we may not get another hughes, but we already have a chamberlain, a kennedy, and several more who could easily be just as good.
go cashman!
Last edited by on Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:25 am; edited 2 times in total
RedMagma- Posts : 3654
Join date : 2007-12-24
Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:23 am
December 27th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
Fair point about the payroll, Pete. I still have, respectfully, to disagree with you about the broader ramifications of trading Hughes however.
The Yankees don’t necessarily revert to their profligate 80’s philosophy, sacrificing their future for the present, merely by trading one elite prospect, however promising he may be.
I realize Hughes has a symbolic significance because he epitomized Cashman’s new commitment to the farm system. But Hank’s public comments reflects how important he regards building from within the system and how critical he once was of his father’s philosophy during the 80’s.
I don’t see how trading Hughes somehow commits or ordains the Yankees to trade Horne, IPK, Brackman or anyone else.
It’s not like Yankee management, by trading Hughes, contracts some contagious disease or dismantles some pivotal fortification that renders them susceptible to repetition.
I thought the whole idea of cultivating a farm system was two-fold: first and foremost, to develop your own players, pitchers, in particular, but secondly, to develop trade chips as well when elite players, like Santana, are available. After all, not every one of the Yankees’ prospects is going to fulfill his promise.
The Red Sox seem to have struck a happy medium between trading and retaining promising young talent. They traded Henley Ramirez and Anibel Sanchez for Beckett. Then again, they’ve refused to trade Buccholz, and both Lester and Ellsbury. (I concede they erred in the Gagne trade but I don’t know that relinquishing Gabbard will haunt them.)
Cashman could do worse than emulate the Red Sox’s recent success in this regard.
Fair point about the payroll, Pete. I still have, respectfully, to disagree with you about the broader ramifications of trading Hughes however.
The Yankees don’t necessarily revert to their profligate 80’s philosophy, sacrificing their future for the present, merely by trading one elite prospect, however promising he may be.
I realize Hughes has a symbolic significance because he epitomized Cashman’s new commitment to the farm system. But Hank’s public comments reflects how important he regards building from within the system and how critical he once was of his father’s philosophy during the 80’s.
I don’t see how trading Hughes somehow commits or ordains the Yankees to trade Horne, IPK, Brackman or anyone else.
It’s not like Yankee management, by trading Hughes, contracts some contagious disease or dismantles some pivotal fortification that renders them susceptible to repetition.
I thought the whole idea of cultivating a farm system was two-fold: first and foremost, to develop your own players, pitchers, in particular, but secondly, to develop trade chips as well when elite players, like Santana, are available. After all, not every one of the Yankees’ prospects is going to fulfill his promise.
The Red Sox seem to have struck a happy medium between trading and retaining promising young talent. They traded Henley Ramirez and Anibel Sanchez for Beckett. Then again, they’ve refused to trade Buccholz, and both Lester and Ellsbury. (I concede they erred in the Gagne trade but I don’t know that relinquishing Gabbard will haunt them.)
Cashman could do worse than emulate the Red Sox’s recent success in this regard.
RedMagma- Posts : 3654
Join date : 2007-12-24
Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:26 am
The Yanks will get Santana. I don’t think that the Yanks have gotten any better this off season. They are no closer to competing with the Sox. The Devil Rays actually made moves to improve. A front line of Kazmir, Shields and Garza is probably as good as any 3 starters the Yanks have at the moment. The Yanks are a billion dollar a year biz once you factor in merch, tv, ticket sales, licensing ect. Paying a luxury tax of 25 million really isn’t a big deal. Santana is an ace. We need someone to go head to head with Beckett and it isn’t Wang. Wang isn’t an ace. He’s a nice pitcher but until he develops another pitch he is a #2 w/ yanks run support that looks like a 1. Petitte is a year older. Moose is washed up. Hughes looked really good at times last year and I thought he should have started a play off game. Melky doesn’t mean much to us. There are always free agent bats available to fill holes. Posada is a year older not better. Mo can still be dominate at times but he has struggled for outs. The yanks made most of these moves to please fans. Who wants to sign 38 year old pitchers? We need a top of the line starter. As it sits right now can anyone say the yanks are positioned to be anything other than a wildcard? Tigers got way better. Angels still look strong. The Tribe look good still. A healthy liriano w/ santana means the twins can make a run esp with delmon young in the mix. Bottom line our play off chances are in danger. I don’t think the Yanks want to open a new stadium coming off a season of not making the play offs.
Peter, i think fundamentally, the philosophy doesnt change… special players call for special circustances. while Phil Hughes is pretty much untouchable, when you have a player of Johan’s ability, he needs to be considered among the options.
and just because you trade a Phil Hughes doesnt automatically mean that the rest of the system is up for grabs… in my opinion, trading a Phil Hughes for would actually make it more difficult to move an IPK, Horne, Brackman, Betances, McCutcheon, etc, because you are one less on the depth chart… however, the depth chart is still expansive enough to take the hit of moving one stud at the top.
Its still nice to remove Mussina, Pavano, Giambi, and Farnsworth off the books. I like Mussina, but he just isn’t the pitcher he used to be, and he’s set to earn $11 million next season. Even then though, Giambi is owed a $5 million buy out, and Pavano a $2 million buy out.
Hank & Cash faded the Alias Smith & Epstein Bluff at the MLB Winter Poker Meeting for Johann and the bids for Santana will not again be as high as Hughes, Melky, and whoever else the Yanks had shown.
Santana is a free agent after next season and currently enjoys a full no trade provision in his contract with the Twins. Gammons and all the other ESPN insiders that were either in cahoots with Smith & Epstein or played as stooges by Smith & Epstein…look more foolish by the day as they hem and haw over the delay in Boston’s ability to bring in Johann.
Bill Smith lost all leverage after he and Epstein were exposed as a poor poker players in Nashville.
Right now Bill Smith is praying the Yankees have a very poor record early in the season along with injuries to Yankee front line pitchers….he’s also got to hope that another phenom does not emerge from the Yanks system.
Good luck with that Mr. Smith.
The Twins will get 2 extra picks in the draft when the Yanks sign Johann after the 2008 season concludes.
The only other scenario for Smith is to trade Johann now for 2 or 3 genuine MLB prospects that have progressed nicely through the Yankees minor league system as they will be a couple of years closer to the Majors (rather than ground zero draft picks). Smith will not get any Ready for Prime Time Players.
The last scenario is the Trade Deadline in mid-season. Smith has to hope some team is desparate and will pay through the nose for a 3 month Santana rental…like the ’stros did for the Big Unit…only to watch him dash to the Diamondbacks at season end.
I understand your point, as I do with all Yankee fans that want to sign ‘The Great Santana’. We are at the dawn of a new Yankee era. Cano, Joba, Phil, Ian, Melk are just the beginning of the new crop of Yankee stars. Our AA, and AAA teams led their leagues in wins this past year. The AA team won the title while the AAA made it deep into the playoffs. No other organization in the league can claim that. What does it mean? It means that the talent level of the minors is very high and is close to being ready. Is also means that there will be a turnover in the Yankee roster within the next 5 years. In 2 years the following players will be gone….Giambi, Matsui, Damon, Abreu, Farny, Andy, Moose, Pavano. Of those names listed above, how many have won a ring? Just the homegrown product, Andy. We built up a dynasty in the 90’s with our homegrown talent. Then we got greedy and signed every FA we could get our paws on. Has the method worked since 2000? All the players we signed were cant miss players. How many times in the past 7 years have we heard ESPN or sports radio shows talk about how Randy Johnson, Kevin Brown, Jason Giambi or countless others were going to put the Yank over the top. How many of these cant miss FA’s have we seen the Bronx chew up and spit out? When will enough be enough. Believe me I know how great Johan is, Ive followed him as closely as anyone due to fantasy baseball. We need to stop this madness though. Enough is enough, even for Santana. We tried the ‘giving away young talent and signing the best FA’s on the market’ method already, it hasn’t worked for us. Why not give this way a chance? All Im asking for is one year, just for one year lets try and focus on developing our homegrown talent? If it doesn’t work Im sure we will go back to the tired method of bring in more overpriced vets to stink up the roster, I promise.
Peter, i think fundamentally, the philosophy doesnt change… special players call for special circustances. while Phil Hughes is pretty much untouchable, when you have a player of Johan’s ability, he needs to be considered among the options.
and just because you trade a Phil Hughes doesnt automatically mean that the rest of the system is up for grabs… in my opinion, trading a Phil Hughes for would actually make it more difficult to move an IPK, Horne, Brackman, Betances, McCutcheon, etc, because you are one less on the depth chart… however, the depth chart is still expansive enough to take the hit of moving one stud at the top.
Its still nice to remove Mussina, Pavano, Giambi, and Farnsworth off the books. I like Mussina, but he just isn’t the pitcher he used to be, and he’s set to earn $11 million next season. Even then though, Giambi is owed a $5 million buy out, and Pavano a $2 million buy out.
Hank & Cash faded the Alias Smith & Epstein Bluff at the MLB Winter Poker Meeting for Johann and the bids for Santana will not again be as high as Hughes, Melky, and whoever else the Yanks had shown.
Santana is a free agent after next season and currently enjoys a full no trade provision in his contract with the Twins. Gammons and all the other ESPN insiders that were either in cahoots with Smith & Epstein or played as stooges by Smith & Epstein…look more foolish by the day as they hem and haw over the delay in Boston’s ability to bring in Johann.
Bill Smith lost all leverage after he and Epstein were exposed as a poor poker players in Nashville.
Right now Bill Smith is praying the Yankees have a very poor record early in the season along with injuries to Yankee front line pitchers….he’s also got to hope that another phenom does not emerge from the Yanks system.
Good luck with that Mr. Smith.
The Twins will get 2 extra picks in the draft when the Yanks sign Johann after the 2008 season concludes.
The only other scenario for Smith is to trade Johann now for 2 or 3 genuine MLB prospects that have progressed nicely through the Yankees minor league system as they will be a couple of years closer to the Majors (rather than ground zero draft picks). Smith will not get any Ready for Prime Time Players.
The last scenario is the Trade Deadline in mid-season. Smith has to hope some team is desparate and will pay through the nose for a 3 month Santana rental…like the ’stros did for the Big Unit…only to watch him dash to the Diamondbacks at season end.
I understand your point, as I do with all Yankee fans that want to sign ‘The Great Santana’. We are at the dawn of a new Yankee era. Cano, Joba, Phil, Ian, Melk are just the beginning of the new crop of Yankee stars. Our AA, and AAA teams led their leagues in wins this past year. The AA team won the title while the AAA made it deep into the playoffs. No other organization in the league can claim that. What does it mean? It means that the talent level of the minors is very high and is close to being ready. Is also means that there will be a turnover in the Yankee roster within the next 5 years. In 2 years the following players will be gone….Giambi, Matsui, Damon, Abreu, Farny, Andy, Moose, Pavano. Of those names listed above, how many have won a ring? Just the homegrown product, Andy. We built up a dynasty in the 90’s with our homegrown talent. Then we got greedy and signed every FA we could get our paws on. Has the method worked since 2000? All the players we signed were cant miss players. How many times in the past 7 years have we heard ESPN or sports radio shows talk about how Randy Johnson, Kevin Brown, Jason Giambi or countless others were going to put the Yank over the top. How many of these cant miss FA’s have we seen the Bronx chew up and spit out? When will enough be enough. Believe me I know how great Johan is, Ive followed him as closely as anyone due to fantasy baseball. We need to stop this madness though. Enough is enough, even for Santana. We tried the ‘giving away young talent and signing the best FA’s on the market’ method already, it hasn’t worked for us. Why not give this way a chance? All Im asking for is one year, just for one year lets try and focus on developing our homegrown talent? If it doesn’t work Im sure we will go back to the tired method of bring in more overpriced vets to stink up the roster, I promise.
Last edited by on Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:32 am; edited 4 times in total
RedMagma- Posts : 3654
Join date : 2007-12-24
Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:27 am
Peter Abraham
First off, good baseball talk on this thread. Unlike some forums, it’s nice to see people can discuss baseball without being jerks about it.
Meanwhile, the idea that the Yankees can spend money because they’ll have money coming off the books after 2008 doesn’t fly with me.
Yes, they could lose Pettitte, Giambi, Abreu, Farnsworth, Mussina, etc. But they’ll keep some of those guys and they’ll have to replace the rest. Getting a starter to replace Pettitte won’t be cheap. Teixeira at first base? A power hitting corner OF?
The Yankees aren’t suddenly going to have a 100 million payroll. They would have to get under 160 million to avoid the tax in 2009. I don’t see that happening. Meanwhile, as every year passes the contracts of Posada and Rivera will become burdens. What do you think Jeter will want (and get) when his deal expires? Wang and Cano will be FA before too long, etc.
It’s not the money or the prospects, it’s the philosophy. Will the Yankees develop their own own starters or buy somebdy else’s. Trade Hughes then trading Kennedy becomes easier. Then Horne, then Brackman, etc.
Invest in the process and become a powerhouse at that. Use your revenues in the draft and the international market.
First off, good baseball talk on this thread. Unlike some forums, it’s nice to see people can discuss baseball without being jerks about it.
Meanwhile, the idea that the Yankees can spend money because they’ll have money coming off the books after 2008 doesn’t fly with me.
Yes, they could lose Pettitte, Giambi, Abreu, Farnsworth, Mussina, etc. But they’ll keep some of those guys and they’ll have to replace the rest. Getting a starter to replace Pettitte won’t be cheap. Teixeira at first base? A power hitting corner OF?
The Yankees aren’t suddenly going to have a 100 million payroll. They would have to get under 160 million to avoid the tax in 2009. I don’t see that happening. Meanwhile, as every year passes the contracts of Posada and Rivera will become burdens. What do you think Jeter will want (and get) when his deal expires? Wang and Cano will be FA before too long, etc.
It’s not the money or the prospects, it’s the philosophy. Will the Yankees develop their own own starters or buy somebdy else’s. Trade Hughes then trading Kennedy becomes easier. Then Horne, then Brackman, etc.
Invest in the process and become a powerhouse at that. Use your revenues in the draft and the international market.
RedMagma- Posts : 3654
Join date : 2007-12-24
Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:30 am
I think if Santana is going to Boston they will offer up the Hughes deal in the final hour. Otherwise, they will try to land him with a deal of Kennedy and a combination of other players. If Boston is indeed bluffing, then they will try to get him without Hughes. The ideal scenario is that Santana stays a Twin and we just cut him the check he wants after next season.
I know the philosophy is that you cannot make decisions based on what Boston does but the fact that they already have an ace in Beckett complicates things. Adding Santana to that lineup would make them VERY difficult to beat in a playoff series. I’d be willing to take the chance with our current rotation against their current rotation hoping that Hughes or Joba really step it up this season. But facing them with our rotation and adding Santana to theirs would be a scary situation
I know the philosophy is that you cannot make decisions based on what Boston does but the fact that they already have an ace in Beckett complicates things. Adding Santana to that lineup would make them VERY difficult to beat in a playoff series. I’d be willing to take the chance with our current rotation against their current rotation hoping that Hughes or Joba really step it up this season. But facing them with our rotation and adding Santana to theirs would be a scary situation
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Join date : 2007-12-24
Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:32 am
Listen nobody is going to convince me that trading away Hughes, Kennedy, Melky and Horne or another top prospect is worth Santana. I base this on my belief that there is just no way he can duplicate the numbers these past 4 years over the next 7 or 8 years. I also think that Melk will be a 20/20, +.300 hitting cannon armed CF for the next 15 years. I also believe that Phil and Ian will go on to great things over their career, more so with Phil. Even if it was a 1 for 1 deal and Phil is 75% of Johan, he’s still 8 years younger and has much less wear on the arm ( Johan led the league in innings the past 4 years ).
On the flip side I know that I cannot convince anyone that trading for Johan is a bad thing. I mean 4 prospects for the best SP in the league? AND he’s a lefty? AND he’s not even 30 yet? The cards are stacked against me and my brethren big time on that argument. Its like trying to stop an avalanche with a shovel.
Like so many things though, its not as black and white as trading 4 maybes for a definite. Lets look at this another way.
We trade for Johan….give away the 4 guys I listed earlier…sign Johan to a 7 year, 200M dollar extension. 75% of Yankee fans are against the trade; I base this on a Newsday poll that asked if we should trade for Johan or continue with the building from within plan, 75% of the Yankee fans wanted to keep the kids and build from within. On top of that the Yankee GM publicly said he did not want to make the deal. Now that is a lot of pressure going against Johan. Can he live up to that pressure? Maybe, nobody can answer that question. Many players claimed to be ready for the big Apple, but failed. But lets continue with our best case scenario of the Yankees signing him, him being healthy and ready for the spotlight. Now with all that pressure comes great expectations. Johan is pitching against the Sox. Lets say Johan goes 8in…4hits…0ER…12K. Now I don’t know a Yankee fan on the globe that would not be happy with that line. My question for you is how happy? Would it be a feeling of “Oh my god, did you see that game!” Or would it be a feeling of “good, that’s why we paid him all the money and gave away all the prospects, that’s what he’s supposed to do”. Now on the flip side. Lets say Phil is pitching against the Sox, he also has a line of 8in…4hits…0ER…12K. What’s the buzz around the water cooler the next day? It would have that “Oh my god, did you see that game!” feeling to it. Amazing!
Now I know what some responses will be to that statement. “Hey Dru, dummy, The fact that Johan’s line is more of a normal event than Phil’s speaks volumes for Johan. If any lower level SP does that it has buzz.” That’s true, but the thing is, it would be our buzz. No Yankee hater across the country could give anything but praise for Phil doing that. To me, that value carries a lot of weight. Now if Phil stinks the rest of the year its doesnt mean a thing. What if though…WHAT IF that is just the start of something great? WHAT IF he figured out his changeup and throws that along with his hammer curve and pinpoint fastball? WHAT IF it was the start or his greatness? The buzz around NY would be higher than any buzz Johan could produce, why? Expectations…its a killer!
I have another question to all the Santana supporters. What if Phil didn’t get hurt in Texas and pitched a no hitter? Who knows what Phil could have done if 100% healthy all year. What if he ended up getting ROY and had great numbers like he did in Sept. Would we be having this discussion? Would Phil be involved in this offer? I don’t think he would. Joba and Phil would be untouchable. Or maybe Yankee fans would be saying trade Joba. My point is that we don’t even know for certain, bad or good, what we have with Phil. Arent any of the Johan supporters at least interested to see what Phil can do over an entire season? I am. I cant wait to see Phil 15 years from now still in pinstripes going for the Yankee all time wins record Don’t you guys think there is something wrong that Ford is the all time win leader at only 236? Or that the Yanks only have two guys with 200 wins?
Ford = 236
Ruffing = 231
Gomez = 189
Guidry = 170
We have a chance to have our own 300 game winner, not just getting one at the tail end of his career, but a true 300 game winner from start to finish. A player that will be called a “True Yankee”. Will Johan ever fit under that cat? He would need to win the CY Young and WS every year of his contract to be considered a “True Yankee”. I think the opportunity to have a Yankee legend from start to finish is worth the risk of taking a step back in 08.
Im sure people will spit back fire from this post because it assumes much. Again, try to remember that I am throwing rocks at an Abrams tank; I have to swing for the fences. You guys have all the stats in your favor, Im trying to give this issue a different spin. There is more to being a baseball fan than W’s and L’s. My dream is that Phil lives up to the expectations and 15-20 years from now I can bring my son to the game and tell him about Phil Hughes, the all time Yankees Win leader, the guy we almost gave away.
On the flip side I know that I cannot convince anyone that trading for Johan is a bad thing. I mean 4 prospects for the best SP in the league? AND he’s a lefty? AND he’s not even 30 yet? The cards are stacked against me and my brethren big time on that argument. Its like trying to stop an avalanche with a shovel.
Like so many things though, its not as black and white as trading 4 maybes for a definite. Lets look at this another way.
We trade for Johan….give away the 4 guys I listed earlier…sign Johan to a 7 year, 200M dollar extension. 75% of Yankee fans are against the trade; I base this on a Newsday poll that asked if we should trade for Johan or continue with the building from within plan, 75% of the Yankee fans wanted to keep the kids and build from within. On top of that the Yankee GM publicly said he did not want to make the deal. Now that is a lot of pressure going against Johan. Can he live up to that pressure? Maybe, nobody can answer that question. Many players claimed to be ready for the big Apple, but failed. But lets continue with our best case scenario of the Yankees signing him, him being healthy and ready for the spotlight. Now with all that pressure comes great expectations. Johan is pitching against the Sox. Lets say Johan goes 8in…4hits…0ER…12K. Now I don’t know a Yankee fan on the globe that would not be happy with that line. My question for you is how happy? Would it be a feeling of “Oh my god, did you see that game!” Or would it be a feeling of “good, that’s why we paid him all the money and gave away all the prospects, that’s what he’s supposed to do”. Now on the flip side. Lets say Phil is pitching against the Sox, he also has a line of 8in…4hits…0ER…12K. What’s the buzz around the water cooler the next day? It would have that “Oh my god, did you see that game!” feeling to it. Amazing!
Now I know what some responses will be to that statement. “Hey Dru, dummy, The fact that Johan’s line is more of a normal event than Phil’s speaks volumes for Johan. If any lower level SP does that it has buzz.” That’s true, but the thing is, it would be our buzz. No Yankee hater across the country could give anything but praise for Phil doing that. To me, that value carries a lot of weight. Now if Phil stinks the rest of the year its doesnt mean a thing. What if though…WHAT IF that is just the start of something great? WHAT IF he figured out his changeup and throws that along with his hammer curve and pinpoint fastball? WHAT IF it was the start or his greatness? The buzz around NY would be higher than any buzz Johan could produce, why? Expectations…its a killer!
I have another question to all the Santana supporters. What if Phil didn’t get hurt in Texas and pitched a no hitter? Who knows what Phil could have done if 100% healthy all year. What if he ended up getting ROY and had great numbers like he did in Sept. Would we be having this discussion? Would Phil be involved in this offer? I don’t think he would. Joba and Phil would be untouchable. Or maybe Yankee fans would be saying trade Joba. My point is that we don’t even know for certain, bad or good, what we have with Phil. Arent any of the Johan supporters at least interested to see what Phil can do over an entire season? I am. I cant wait to see Phil 15 years from now still in pinstripes going for the Yankee all time wins record Don’t you guys think there is something wrong that Ford is the all time win leader at only 236? Or that the Yanks only have two guys with 200 wins?
Ford = 236
Ruffing = 231
Gomez = 189
Guidry = 170
We have a chance to have our own 300 game winner, not just getting one at the tail end of his career, but a true 300 game winner from start to finish. A player that will be called a “True Yankee”. Will Johan ever fit under that cat? He would need to win the CY Young and WS every year of his contract to be considered a “True Yankee”. I think the opportunity to have a Yankee legend from start to finish is worth the risk of taking a step back in 08.
Im sure people will spit back fire from this post because it assumes much. Again, try to remember that I am throwing rocks at an Abrams tank; I have to swing for the fences. You guys have all the stats in your favor, Im trying to give this issue a different spin. There is more to being a baseball fan than W’s and L’s. My dream is that Phil lives up to the expectations and 15-20 years from now I can bring my son to the game and tell him about Phil Hughes, the all time Yankees Win leader, the guy we almost gave away.
RedMagma- Posts : 3654
Join date : 2007-12-24
Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:42 am
<b>OF, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=2000385>Rod Allen</A></b>: Possessing an interesting combination of power and speed, Allen found it hard securing a starting outfield position since being selected in the 12th round of the 2004 MLB Draft out of Oklahome State University. He served as a reserve outfielder with the Staten Island Yankees in 2004, hitting just .234 with a pair of home runs, before playing for Tampa, Charleston, and Staten Island again in 2005. A career .230 hitter with the Yankees, Allen amassed just 204 at-bats in two seasons.<br>
<br>
<b>OF, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1837069>Yosvany Almario-Cabrera</A></b>: One of the more surprising victims this offseason, Almario-Cabrera had some success with the Yankees after being selected in the 18th round of the 2004 MLB Draft. He boasted a career .313 batting average with 8 home runs and 14 stolen bases while playing a reserve role, most recently with the Tampa Yankee. However, he'll turn 26 years old next season and he would have taken away useful development at-bats from younger players.<br>
<br>
<b>OF, Jonathan Araujo</b>: Araujo hit .302 with three home runs in just 116 at-bats in 2005 with the Dominican Summer League Yankees, his first and only season in the Yankees' organization. The soon-to-be 21-year outfielder would have had a hard time cracking the Gulf Coast League outfield in 2006.<br>
<br>
<b>SS, Pedro Arias</b>: Not surprisingly, Arias was released after hitting a combined .168 in his three seasons with the Dominican Summer League Yankees. Known more as a defensive specialist, who could also play third base and second base, Arias' bat never came around like the Yankees had hoped.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=2000306>Andrew Carter</A></b>: Drafted in the 35th round of the 2005 MLB Draft, Carter had a very successful professional debut with the Gulf Coast League Yankees this past season. He went 2-1 with a 3.92 ERA, but posted a 2.00 ERA as a reliever. The speculation was he'd be a possible candidate for the Staten Island or Charleston bullpen in 2006, so his release comes as somewhat of a surprise.<br>
<br>
<b>OF, Marcos De Jesus</b>: Like Arias, De Jesus did little with the bat in his three seasons with the Dominican Summer League Yankees. He hit a career-high .222 in 2005, bringing his career average up to .176. It was his ridiculous strikeout totals however that arguably was the determining factor. His 186 strikeouts in just 380 at-bats made <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1836982>Tim Battle</A> look like Tony Gwynn.<br>
<br>
<b>3B, Jordan Devoir</b>: Drafted in the 19th round of the 2004 MLB Draft out of the University of Illinois-Chicago, Devoir saw his playing time as a reserve player cut significantly in 2005 after <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=2000435>Grant Plumley</A> began serving more of a utility role in the Yankees' farm system. Devoir hit just .203 in his career with 70 strikeouts in just 197 at-bats.<br>
<br>
<b>UT, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1888889>Yobal Duenas</A></b>: The soon-to-be 34-year old Duenas played all over the diamond for the Trenton Thunder in 2004, contributing quite well with the bat. He hit .271 with 16 doubles and 3 home runs in limited Eastern League action, but with <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=2000404>Justin Christian</A> likely to secure a utility spot with Trenton in 2006, there was no more room for Duenas.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, Alselmo Figuereo</b>: Figuereo, who surprisingly wasn't released prior to the start of the 2005 season, had a career year last season. He went 2-5 with a 1.55 ERA for the Dominican Summer League Yankees, but the three-year veteran of the league wound up hitting 14 batters and striking out just one in 29 innings pitched and finished his Yankee career with a 3-13 mark.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, Angel Fuente</b>: Talk about hitting batters. Some might be surprised to see Fuente and his 0.93 ERA with the Dominican Summer League Yankees released. However, even though opposing batters hit just .148 off of him, Fuente wound up beaming 32 batters in just 38 2/3 innings. The 22-year old from the Dominican Republic didn't figure in the Gulf Coast League Yankees plans for 2006.<br>
<br>
<b>3B, Jhonathan Gil</b>: Gil is one of the more surprising names from the Dominican Summer League Yankees who has been released this offseason. Granted, he owned just a .256 batting average in his three seasons in the DSL, but he showed a good eye at the plate for a player who just turned 20-years old in September.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=2000391>Brandon Harmsen</A></b>: Drafted in the 6th round of the 2002 MLB Draft out of Grand Rapids Junior College, Harmsen is arguably the most surprising player to be released this offseason. Despite being just 24-27 in his four years with the Yankees, Harmsen boasted a solid 3.80 career ERA and seemed to do well after moving to the bullpen in the second-half of the 2005 season.<br>
<br>
<b>3B, Josh Hollingsworth</b>: Signed out of the Frontier League, Hollingsworth showed good pop in limited action with the Tampa Yankees in 2005. The 25-year old former shortstop didn't figure to return to Tampa next year but the speculation was he could hang around if <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1840397>Eric Duncan</A> makes his anticipated move to first base in 2006.<br>
<br>
<b>OF, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1591562>Bryce Kartler</A></b>: Drafted in the 11th round of the 2003 MLB Draft out of Arizona State University, Kartler hit a career-low .189 with the Tampa Yankees in 2005. The 25-year old left-handed hitter had clubbed 15 home runs in a little more than the equivalent of a full minor league season, but he didn't figure in the long term plans of the Yankees.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1338155>Mike Knox</A></b>: Knox was selected in the 27th round of the 2002 MLB Draft out of Navarro Junior College in Texas. He went just 8-11 with a 5.22 ERA in his career and the recent restocking of arms in the Yankees' farm system made him expendable.<br>
<br>
<b>SS, Carlos Leon</b>: Leon's release was certainly surprising. The switch-hitting middle infielder hit just .224 in his three years in the Dominican Summer League, but he had more walks than strikeouts. He also had 38 stolen bases and 89 runs scored in the rough equivalency of a full minor league season. Combining the fact that he won't turn 20-years old until March, Leon's release was unexpected.<br>
<br>
<b>3B, Wilfredo Lorenzo</b>: Lorenzo is another name showing a virtual "house-cleaning" of the Dominican academy. In three years with the DSL Yankees, Lorenzo hit just .213 and with just 6 home runs in 498 at-bats, his power didn't evolved as quickly as the Yankees had hoped.<br>
<br>
<b>C, Schuyler Mann</b>: An undrafted free agent signing out of Harvard, Mann caught just one game and amassed a grand total of 9 at-bats with the Gulf Coast League Yankees in 2005. Relatively thin at the catching position, the Yankees still could not find room for him in the organization.<br>
<br>
<b>SS, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1869765>Deivi Mendez</A></b>: The Dominican shortstop began serving more of a utility role with the Yankees in the last couple of seasons. But with just 10 home runs and 14 stolen bases in 330 minor league games, his bat never came around. With the presence of newly acquired <b><A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1867584>Kevin Howard</A></b> in the organization and a likely candidate to fill the utility role with the Columbus Clippers in 2006, there was no need for Mendez.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, Michael Mlotkowski</b>: Drafted in the 33rd round of the 2005 MLB Draft out of Oklahoma State University, Mlotkowski was a strikeout pitcher in college. He pitched in just one game for the Gulf Coast League Yankees in his professional debut in 2005. However, with more talented pitchers seemingly destined for Extended Spring Training next year, the Yankees didn't have room for him.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=2000350>Miguel Montan</A></b>: Further proof finding innings for the glutton of promising pitching prospects will be a difficult task in 2006, the Yankees released Montan. He just turned 20-years old in November and while possessing a projectable body frame, Montan boasted a 3.09 career ERA prior to his release.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=2000392>Marvin Moscat</A></b>: Outside of Brandon Harmsen, Moscat's release may have been the most surprising. Sure he'll be 24-years old in the early part of the 2006 season. However, Moscat had done everything asked of him. He went 10-7 with a 2.85 ERA with more strikeouts than innings pitched. Moscat's release might wind up being the first sign of promising starting pitching prospects making the move to the bullpen in the future.<br>
<br>
<b>LHP, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1836967>Shaun Parker</A></b>: Walking almost as many batters as he struck out with the Charleston Riverdogs didn't help the undrafted free agent signee's cause to remain in the organization. Parker's lack of success against left-handed batters was arguably the biggest reason he became expendable.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, Kevin Rival</b>: An undrafted free agent signing who was originally released by the Brewers before signing with the Yankees, Rival pitched quite well with the Charleston Riverdogs. A victim of a number's crunch, the 26-year old Rival offered little value to the Yankees.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, Carlos Rosario</b>: The former first base prospect from the Dominican Summer League was tried at catcher before a final tryout on the mound. A 5.28 ERA in 37 professional games was enough for the Yankees to realize that Rosario didn't figure in their long-term plans on the mound.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1853705>Eric Schmitt</A></b>: The 27-year old Wake Forest product had a solid career with the Yankees. He went 26-19 with a 3.99 ERA in 134 games with more than three times as many strikeouts as walks. But with the likes of <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1888869>Jeremy King</A> and others ready for the higher minor league levels, Schmitt was lost in the shuffle.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, Jose Tadeo</b>: Tadeo missed all of 2005 with injuries after going 1-1 with a 3.00 ERA in 16 games with the Gulf Coast League Yankees in 2004. The uncertainty of his health was possibly a mitigating factor in his release.<br>
<br>
<b>2B, Luis Valdez</b>: The 19-year old Valdez had a hard time finding a full-time defensive position and he struggled to hit just .208 in his three seasons with the Dominican Summer League Yankees. Valdez didn't have one plus tool and as a result, his projection was very limited.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, Adriano Vasquez</b>: The 19-year old didn't have spectacular numbers (2-4, 6.03). However, at 5'11 and 150 pounds, Vasquez wasn't an imposing figure on the mound.<br>
<br>
<b>UT, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1869813>Nick Walsh</A></b>: The 25-year old undrafted free agent signing didn't do enough offensively to distinguish himself as a better alternative at the utility spot than the likes of Grant Plumley and others.<br>
<br>
<b>3B, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1869781>Hector Zamora</A></b>: One of the nicest players in the system, Zamora's patience at the plate never materialized into actual run production. A 21st round pick out of San Jose State University back in 2002, some prospect followers were surprised to see Zamora back with the Yankees in 2005 after three straight years with the Staten Island Yankees.<br>
<br>
<br>
<b>OF, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1837069>Yosvany Almario-Cabrera</A></b>: One of the more surprising victims this offseason, Almario-Cabrera had some success with the Yankees after being selected in the 18th round of the 2004 MLB Draft. He boasted a career .313 batting average with 8 home runs and 14 stolen bases while playing a reserve role, most recently with the Tampa Yankee. However, he'll turn 26 years old next season and he would have taken away useful development at-bats from younger players.<br>
<br>
<b>OF, Jonathan Araujo</b>: Araujo hit .302 with three home runs in just 116 at-bats in 2005 with the Dominican Summer League Yankees, his first and only season in the Yankees' organization. The soon-to-be 21-year outfielder would have had a hard time cracking the Gulf Coast League outfield in 2006.<br>
<br>
<b>SS, Pedro Arias</b>: Not surprisingly, Arias was released after hitting a combined .168 in his three seasons with the Dominican Summer League Yankees. Known more as a defensive specialist, who could also play third base and second base, Arias' bat never came around like the Yankees had hoped.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=2000306>Andrew Carter</A></b>: Drafted in the 35th round of the 2005 MLB Draft, Carter had a very successful professional debut with the Gulf Coast League Yankees this past season. He went 2-1 with a 3.92 ERA, but posted a 2.00 ERA as a reliever. The speculation was he'd be a possible candidate for the Staten Island or Charleston bullpen in 2006, so his release comes as somewhat of a surprise.<br>
<br>
<b>OF, Marcos De Jesus</b>: Like Arias, De Jesus did little with the bat in his three seasons with the Dominican Summer League Yankees. He hit a career-high .222 in 2005, bringing his career average up to .176. It was his ridiculous strikeout totals however that arguably was the determining factor. His 186 strikeouts in just 380 at-bats made <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1836982>Tim Battle</A> look like Tony Gwynn.<br>
<br>
<b>3B, Jordan Devoir</b>: Drafted in the 19th round of the 2004 MLB Draft out of the University of Illinois-Chicago, Devoir saw his playing time as a reserve player cut significantly in 2005 after <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=2000435>Grant Plumley</A> began serving more of a utility role in the Yankees' farm system. Devoir hit just .203 in his career with 70 strikeouts in just 197 at-bats.<br>
<br>
<b>UT, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1888889>Yobal Duenas</A></b>: The soon-to-be 34-year old Duenas played all over the diamond for the Trenton Thunder in 2004, contributing quite well with the bat. He hit .271 with 16 doubles and 3 home runs in limited Eastern League action, but with <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=2000404>Justin Christian</A> likely to secure a utility spot with Trenton in 2006, there was no more room for Duenas.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, Alselmo Figuereo</b>: Figuereo, who surprisingly wasn't released prior to the start of the 2005 season, had a career year last season. He went 2-5 with a 1.55 ERA for the Dominican Summer League Yankees, but the three-year veteran of the league wound up hitting 14 batters and striking out just one in 29 innings pitched and finished his Yankee career with a 3-13 mark.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, Angel Fuente</b>: Talk about hitting batters. Some might be surprised to see Fuente and his 0.93 ERA with the Dominican Summer League Yankees released. However, even though opposing batters hit just .148 off of him, Fuente wound up beaming 32 batters in just 38 2/3 innings. The 22-year old from the Dominican Republic didn't figure in the Gulf Coast League Yankees plans for 2006.<br>
<br>
<b>3B, Jhonathan Gil</b>: Gil is one of the more surprising names from the Dominican Summer League Yankees who has been released this offseason. Granted, he owned just a .256 batting average in his three seasons in the DSL, but he showed a good eye at the plate for a player who just turned 20-years old in September.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=2000391>Brandon Harmsen</A></b>: Drafted in the 6th round of the 2002 MLB Draft out of Grand Rapids Junior College, Harmsen is arguably the most surprising player to be released this offseason. Despite being just 24-27 in his four years with the Yankees, Harmsen boasted a solid 3.80 career ERA and seemed to do well after moving to the bullpen in the second-half of the 2005 season.<br>
<br>
<b>3B, Josh Hollingsworth</b>: Signed out of the Frontier League, Hollingsworth showed good pop in limited action with the Tampa Yankees in 2005. The 25-year old former shortstop didn't figure to return to Tampa next year but the speculation was he could hang around if <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1840397>Eric Duncan</A> makes his anticipated move to first base in 2006.<br>
<br>
<b>OF, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1591562>Bryce Kartler</A></b>: Drafted in the 11th round of the 2003 MLB Draft out of Arizona State University, Kartler hit a career-low .189 with the Tampa Yankees in 2005. The 25-year old left-handed hitter had clubbed 15 home runs in a little more than the equivalent of a full minor league season, but he didn't figure in the long term plans of the Yankees.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1338155>Mike Knox</A></b>: Knox was selected in the 27th round of the 2002 MLB Draft out of Navarro Junior College in Texas. He went just 8-11 with a 5.22 ERA in his career and the recent restocking of arms in the Yankees' farm system made him expendable.<br>
<br>
<b>SS, Carlos Leon</b>: Leon's release was certainly surprising. The switch-hitting middle infielder hit just .224 in his three years in the Dominican Summer League, but he had more walks than strikeouts. He also had 38 stolen bases and 89 runs scored in the rough equivalency of a full minor league season. Combining the fact that he won't turn 20-years old until March, Leon's release was unexpected.<br>
<br>
<b>3B, Wilfredo Lorenzo</b>: Lorenzo is another name showing a virtual "house-cleaning" of the Dominican academy. In three years with the DSL Yankees, Lorenzo hit just .213 and with just 6 home runs in 498 at-bats, his power didn't evolved as quickly as the Yankees had hoped.<br>
<br>
<b>C, Schuyler Mann</b>: An undrafted free agent signing out of Harvard, Mann caught just one game and amassed a grand total of 9 at-bats with the Gulf Coast League Yankees in 2005. Relatively thin at the catching position, the Yankees still could not find room for him in the organization.<br>
<br>
<b>SS, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1869765>Deivi Mendez</A></b>: The Dominican shortstop began serving more of a utility role with the Yankees in the last couple of seasons. But with just 10 home runs and 14 stolen bases in 330 minor league games, his bat never came around. With the presence of newly acquired <b><A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1867584>Kevin Howard</A></b> in the organization and a likely candidate to fill the utility role with the Columbus Clippers in 2006, there was no need for Mendez.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, Michael Mlotkowski</b>: Drafted in the 33rd round of the 2005 MLB Draft out of Oklahoma State University, Mlotkowski was a strikeout pitcher in college. He pitched in just one game for the Gulf Coast League Yankees in his professional debut in 2005. However, with more talented pitchers seemingly destined for Extended Spring Training next year, the Yankees didn't have room for him.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=2000350>Miguel Montan</A></b>: Further proof finding innings for the glutton of promising pitching prospects will be a difficult task in 2006, the Yankees released Montan. He just turned 20-years old in November and while possessing a projectable body frame, Montan boasted a 3.09 career ERA prior to his release.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=2000392>Marvin Moscat</A></b>: Outside of Brandon Harmsen, Moscat's release may have been the most surprising. Sure he'll be 24-years old in the early part of the 2006 season. However, Moscat had done everything asked of him. He went 10-7 with a 2.85 ERA with more strikeouts than innings pitched. Moscat's release might wind up being the first sign of promising starting pitching prospects making the move to the bullpen in the future.<br>
<br>
<b>LHP, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1836967>Shaun Parker</A></b>: Walking almost as many batters as he struck out with the Charleston Riverdogs didn't help the undrafted free agent signee's cause to remain in the organization. Parker's lack of success against left-handed batters was arguably the biggest reason he became expendable.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, Kevin Rival</b>: An undrafted free agent signing who was originally released by the Brewers before signing with the Yankees, Rival pitched quite well with the Charleston Riverdogs. A victim of a number's crunch, the 26-year old Rival offered little value to the Yankees.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, Carlos Rosario</b>: The former first base prospect from the Dominican Summer League was tried at catcher before a final tryout on the mound. A 5.28 ERA in 37 professional games was enough for the Yankees to realize that Rosario didn't figure in their long-term plans on the mound.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1853705>Eric Schmitt</A></b>: The 27-year old Wake Forest product had a solid career with the Yankees. He went 26-19 with a 3.99 ERA in 134 games with more than three times as many strikeouts as walks. But with the likes of <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1888869>Jeremy King</A> and others ready for the higher minor league levels, Schmitt was lost in the shuffle.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, Jose Tadeo</b>: Tadeo missed all of 2005 with injuries after going 1-1 with a 3.00 ERA in 16 games with the Gulf Coast League Yankees in 2004. The uncertainty of his health was possibly a mitigating factor in his release.<br>
<br>
<b>2B, Luis Valdez</b>: The 19-year old Valdez had a hard time finding a full-time defensive position and he struggled to hit just .208 in his three seasons with the Dominican Summer League Yankees. Valdez didn't have one plus tool and as a result, his projection was very limited.<br>
<br>
<b>RHP, Adriano Vasquez</b>: The 19-year old didn't have spectacular numbers (2-4, 6.03). However, at 5'11 and 150 pounds, Vasquez wasn't an imposing figure on the mound.<br>
<br>
<b>UT, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1869813>Nick Walsh</A></b>: The 25-year old undrafted free agent signing didn't do enough offensively to distinguish himself as a better alternative at the utility spot than the likes of Grant Plumley and others.<br>
<br>
<b>3B, <A HREF=http://yankees.Scout.com/a.z?s=303&p=8&c=1&nid=1869781>Hector Zamora</A></b>: One of the nicest players in the system, Zamora's patience at the plate never materialized into actual run production. A 21st round pick out of San Jose State University back in 2002, some prospect followers were surprised to see Zamora back with the Yankees in 2005 after three straight years with the Staten Island Yankees.<br>
<br>
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Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:44 am
Moose...What's left in the tank? Post Rating
Even with all of the young pitchers the Yanks have, Moose might be the biggest unknown. I cringed on his turn in the rotation last year, not because I knew he would get knocked around, but because I never felt that anyone, including him, had a clue what he was going to have when he went out there. There were times he would be unhittable for the first 3-5 innings and then in the next inning he was not able to get anyone out. It was like he was an entirely different pitcher once he started to get hit. I don't know if he got flustered or actually lost his stuff that quickly.
He is, of course, 39 years old, so it is easy to write him off. Last year he allowed a significant number of base hits in excess of his innings pitched, which would usually be a sign that it is over. Mussina has a reputation of a very consistent career, but oddly, he has had seasons like that in the past (even when he was in his 20's) and has bounced back. He had a season like that in 2005, and bounced back in 2006. As a touch pitcher, is it possible he could put it all together again, surviving on guile more than stuff? I think the key for him is getting strikes called on the knuckle curve. That is one nasty pitch when it is working. It is even tough for the umps to call consistently because of the late downward movement, so it is not always whether he is throwing it for strikes, but rather he is getting the strikes called or not.
Obviously, his days of pitching 200 innings or having hopes of winning 20 or being the ace of the staff are gone. He does not have to do those things to help this team this year. All he needs to do is find consistency. Pitchers of his style have often made late career adjustments and pulled it together for another couple of years...can the Moose do it?
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* uniquenyc
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Posted: 12/21/2007 8:42 PM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank? Post Rating
It's easy with Mussina...
88-91mph fastball = good #3 starter
<87 mph fastball = cannon fodder
^^^^^^ this was pretty much what happened last year. When he had his velocity he was good & when he was doing his Glavine impersonation he got creamed.
Last edited 12/21/2007 8:45 PM by uniquenyc
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* MChieco
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Posted: 12/21/2007 10:25 PM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank?
Whatever we get will be a bonus , since we are not expecting much. Hopefully he will show up in spring training in top shape with a chip on his shoulder, determined to prove us wrong.
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* AutomatedTeller
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Posted: 12/22/2007 8:29 AM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank? Post Rating
I'd assume more like 2004/05 than 07 or 06. Man's smart enough to be ok even with bad stuff.
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* stratvox
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Posted: 12/22/2007 9:23 AM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank?
i tend to disagree.i dont care how smart you are if yiour skills are dead they are dead
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* phattony81
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Posted: 12/22/2007 12:15 PM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank?
I've always enjoyed watching Mussina as a pitcher, and in addition i've always liked having him in the Yankee clubhouse. He's a classy guy. Having said that, he's really not an AL East starting pitcher anymore. His fastball sits 85-88, occasionally touching 89-90. Because of this, his knuckle curve doesn't get the same deception that it used to have. It's just really hard to get by on this stuff when you have to see Papi, Manny and Vernon Wells types night in and night out.
I kind of wanted to see Mussina get moved to the NL, perhaps Philly. I thought maybe he could get 2-3 more solid years out of his arm, and possibly chase down 300 wins. As for his role on the 2008 Yankees, I guess he's a 5th starter when the season starts, but if he starts this year poorly, you can bet whichever of Ian Kennedy/Joba Chamberlain that starts at AAA will get his spot. Then he'll just be a spot starter/long man. That's really too bad to see a guy who used to anchor the rotation, and who makes 11 mil, end like that.
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* MM1961
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Posted: 12/22/2007 1:23 PM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank? Post Rating
phattony81 wrote:
I've always enjoyed watching Mussina as a pitcher, and in addition i've always liked having him in the Yankee clubhouse. He's a classy guy. Having said that, he's really not an AL East starting pitcher anymore. His fastball sits 85-88, occasionally touching 89-90. Because of this, his knuckle curve doesn't get the same deception that it used to have. It's just really hard to get by on this stuff when you have to see Papi, Manny and Vernon Wells types night in and night out.
I kind of wanted to see Mussina get moved to the NL, perhaps Philly. I thought maybe he could get 2-3 more solid years out of his arm, and possibly chase down 300 wins. As for his role on the 2008 Yankees, I guess he's a 5th starter when the season starts, but if he starts this year poorly, you can bet whichever of Ian Kennedy/Joba Chamberlain that starts at AAA will get his spot. Then he'll just be a spot starter/long man. That's really too bad to see a guy who used to anchor the rotation, and who makes 11 mil, end like that.
I think that is exactly why the Yankees have to get a top of the rotation starter, in case moose dosen't have it any more.
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* sitbull78
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Posted: 12/22/2007 1:24 PM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank?
I understand that Mussina is needed as a veteran and if he pitches decent then he is good depth with the young starters. However I am intrigued to see what his trade value is considering the ridiculous amount of money Silva got and that Mussina is only paid for one season.
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* dan661
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Posted: 12/22/2007 8:30 PM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank?
Mussina and Giambi alike should be used up asap to get what you can and move past them if they're ineffective or become injured.
If Chamberlain starts in the pen to limit his innings early, Moose has a role that will continue until he either fails from poor performance or is relegated to the pen while still pitching well. If the second happens because they want
Joba moved back into the rotation then Mussina has to make a choice about asking to be traded.
The same goes for Giambi this year in that he should be the everyday first baseman to start the season and if he gets hurt Miranda takes his place.
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* CHIYANKEE
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Posted: 12/22/2007 10:37 PM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank? Post Rating
dan661 wrote:
Moose has a role that will continue until he either fails from poor performance or is relegated to the pen while still pitching well. If the second happens because they want
Joba moved back into the rotation then Mussina has to make a choice about asking to be traded.
If Moose is pitching well out of the the rotation, he will not be moving to the pen. The Yanks will keep him in the rotation until he pitches his way out of it.
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* celebopedia
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Posted: 12/25/2007 5:58 PM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank?
We should trade him to the Phillies for a couple of B-/C+ grade prospects.
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* AcuraMan
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Posted: Yesterday 8:47 AM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank?
uniquenyc wrote:
When he had his velocity he was good & when he was doing his Glavine impersonation he got creamed.
Well if he was doing a Glavine impersonation he should of pitched better. Glavine pitched over 200 innings and started 34 games, WHIP and ERA were lower than Moose.
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* MM1961
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Posted: Yesterday 12:27 PM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank?
celebopedia wrote: We should trade him to the Phillies for a couple of B-/C+ grade prospects.
Can you tell me what good b-/c minor league players would be good for. lightening in a bottle, forget it.
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* karl1958
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Posted: Yesterday 12:46 PM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank?
Does Mussina become more of a HOF candidate given his "clean record"? I think if he ends up with 275 plus wins, many voters will view that as being close to 300 because he was playing on an playing field that wasn't equal.
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* inger
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Posted: Yesterday 5:09 PM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank?
karl1958:
I think Mussina will go to the hall of fame. The fact he never won 20 will not hurt as much in that 17 wins is now the equivalent of what 20 used to be. The fact he will be short of 300 wins? Two-fifty will become the new 300. His winning percentage is excellent and he did not always play on the greatest teams in Baltimore.
I would vote for him...and would have if he would have stayed in Baltimore (my least favorite team, as a Marylander I have taken a boatload of crap about being a Yankee fan all my life).
Who knows what a clean record will mean six, seven, eight years from now. There is a lot of sorting out to do on the steroid scandal before that can be evaluated. And it is yet to be known if anybody is really clean...
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* karl1958
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Posted: Yesterday 7:23 PM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank?
I think players who have gone through a "natural-looking decline" and not tested positive, will be seen as probably "clean".
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* Escobar2631
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Posted: Yesterday 7:29 PM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank?
Moose has nothing in the tank and by May they will bring Ian along for that 5 spot and either put a fake injury on him, bullpen him , trade him which no one would want him, or my bet is just release him and eat the money so he can sign a cheap contract with a NL team and probably be pretty average.
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* Tony53
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Posted: Today 9:10 AM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank?
Call me an optimist, but I think Moose will surprise people in a positive way this coming season and give the Yanks 12 wins and an era around 4.00. That's my 2008 season prediction--oh and #27 too.
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* bjoec8
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Posted: Today 9:28 AM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank?
I think moose will do more than alright. Hes not going to pitch deep into games and there will be the occasional game where he gets knocked around but I certainly feel you'll see better results than last year's. He really only has to hold down the #4 or #5 spot next year and I think he will put up more than representative numbers. Last year was rough but he was very good in 2006 and with a good offseason program I think he could put up numbers closer to 2006 than 2007.
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* CHIYANKEE
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Posted: Today 10:43 AM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank?
bjoec8 wrote: . Last year was rough but he was very good in 2006 and with a good offseason program I think he could put up numbers closer to 2006 than 2007.
Good point. I think a combination of Moose changing his offseason workouts, being a free agent at the end of 2008 and just his pride should motivate him to do well next year. I think him getting yanked from the rotation late this season had to hurt and he will be out to prove he still has soemthing left in the tank.
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* AutomatedTeller
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Posted: Today 11:24 AM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank?
I think you'll end up with numbers more like 04 and 05 than 06 or 07 - in other words, ok. If he does put up an 06-like campaign, the Yankees will likely win 100 games.
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* bjoec8
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Posted: Today 12:10 PM
Re: Moose...What's left in the tank?
Yea thats why I said closer to 2006 than 2007. I think youll get 160 innings w/ a 4.40-4.60ish era and I don't think hell walk many. Hell give up his fair share of hits and miss starts occasionally and when hes not locating his offspeed stuff it will get ugly. Overall, when healthy, I think hell be about league average or so which would be more than the yanks could ask for.
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RedMagma- Posts : 3654
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Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:42 pm
Ban Bud December 27th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
“One thing I disagree with you on, though, is that it isn’t our money. It might not be yours, but it is ours. When I started sitting in the bleachers in 2003, tickets were $8. For 2008, they’re $14.”
Since 2003 the Yankees have had more than $250 million taken from them by Bolshevik Bud Selig’s various “revenue stealing” scams. Your money is paying for the empty seats in Kansas City and private jets in Minnesota. You’re paying the price for Selig’s greed, not Mr. Steinbrenner’s.
“One thing I disagree with you on, though, is that it isn’t our money. It might not be yours, but it is ours. When I started sitting in the bleachers in 2003, tickets were $8. For 2008, they’re $14.”
Since 2003 the Yankees have had more than $250 million taken from them by Bolshevik Bud Selig’s various “revenue stealing” scams. Your money is paying for the empty seats in Kansas City and private jets in Minnesota. You’re paying the price for Selig’s greed, not Mr. Steinbrenner’s.
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Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:43 pm
String Beanfellow December 27th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
I think Smith and Theo thought they would be able to fleece the Yankee farm system by working together. It backfired and now they don’t know how to deal with it.
I think that was the amount talked about before for Santana, but I believe he was looking for more years, which is where the 7/140 million comes from
I think Smith and Theo thought they would be able to fleece the Yankee farm system by working together. It backfired and now they don’t know how to deal with it.
I think that was the amount talked about before for Santana, but I believe he was looking for more years, which is where the 7/140 million comes from
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Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:44 pm
December 27th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Twins are a joke. They have tried and tried to bring a 3rd team into the mix. Since they haven’t been able to do it they are using themselves as the 3rd team. If they intended to keep him then they would of offered him another extension a month ago and would not have wasted there time trying to get into bed with the Yanks and using Boston as a fling. The recent comments are just trying to get the Yanks or Bostons blood going again and get the teams nervous that he might not be traded so they over pay for Santana. He said “as of right now” he is our opening day starter basically the words mean nothing. I have a feeling they will talk again on Jan 1, and he will be traded by the 2nd or 3rd of the new year they are not keeping him. The way their team is built they are not paying a pitcher $20m.
String,
From what I hear, Santana is a very loyal guy. He has settled for less to stay in Minnesota. However, he must see the writing on the wall. His owner is cheap, cheap, cheap. Did I mention the owner is cheap? He was upset when his teammate was dumped.
$20M when guys like Silva are getting $12? Uh, I don’t think so. That’s definitely a face-saving move. If Santana bites, great you get the best pitcher for the next 4 years on the cheap. If he refuses, it sets up an ungracious exit from Minneapolis for Johan.
I still think we’re the only players and I don’t want to see us bid against ourselves.
Twins are a joke. They have tried and tried to bring a 3rd team into the mix. Since they haven’t been able to do it they are using themselves as the 3rd team. If they intended to keep him then they would of offered him another extension a month ago and would not have wasted there time trying to get into bed with the Yanks and using Boston as a fling. The recent comments are just trying to get the Yanks or Bostons blood going again and get the teams nervous that he might not be traded so they over pay for Santana. He said “as of right now” he is our opening day starter basically the words mean nothing. I have a feeling they will talk again on Jan 1, and he will be traded by the 2nd or 3rd of the new year they are not keeping him. The way their team is built they are not paying a pitcher $20m.
String,
From what I hear, Santana is a very loyal guy. He has settled for less to stay in Minnesota. However, he must see the writing on the wall. His owner is cheap, cheap, cheap. Did I mention the owner is cheap? He was upset when his teammate was dumped.
$20M when guys like Silva are getting $12? Uh, I don’t think so. That’s definitely a face-saving move. If Santana bites, great you get the best pitcher for the next 4 years on the cheap. If he refuses, it sets up an ungracious exit from Minneapolis for Johan.
I still think we’re the only players and I don’t want to see us bid against ourselves.
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Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:45 pm
Twins goal is to sign Santana, not trade him
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/rumors/players/Johan+Santana/mlb.p.6441
The trade talks with both the Boston Red Sox and New York Yankees are stalemated, however, the President of the Minnesota Twins told the St. Paul Pioneer Press Wednesday the team is serious about keeping Johan Santana in the Twin Cities.
The Twins have offered Santana, who already is guaranteed $13 million for 2008, an additional four years for a guaranteed $80 million. That contract would make Santana the highest-paid pitcher in baseball with a multi year deal.
"That remains our goal, our first choice, and I'm not going to veer from that," Minnesota team president Dave St. Peter said. "We are comfortable with that scenario if that's the best thing for the Twins' organization. Right now, Johan Santana is our opening night starter against the Los Angeles Angels and Torii Hunter, and I like our chances (of winning)."
Source: St. Paul Pioneer Press
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Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:55 pm
Join the discussion. Here you'll see the comments in the order that they were posted.
*
1
1 - 10 of 69 First | < Previous | Next > | Last
Posturing...Santana's agent needs numbers thrown around to get the bidding started...whatever.
Elroy MacIrish posted on Thursday, Dec 27, 2007 12:30 pm ESTReport Abuse
* 2 Damn I got beat.
Steve H posted on Thursday, Dec 27, 2007 12:36 pm ESTReport Abuse
* 3 2nd
Cappy Wolf Pappy posted on Thursday, Dec 27, 2007 12:38 pm ESTReport Abuse
* 4 That's the best news coming out of Minnesota since Adrian Peterson.We as Twins fans, can only hope that it works out for both sides,and get on with the game.Santana,Lariano,need we say more.Go Twins.
Richard J posted on Thursday, Dec 27, 2007 12:38 pm ESTReport Abuse
* 5 2nd, Trade him, we don't want to Twins to be like the Wolves were for so long.1 star with all our payroll. Unlees Pohlad is opening his pocket, we're not doing anything with just one pitcher.
Leff NuZ posted on Thursday, Dec 27, 2007 12:40 pm ESTReport Abuse
* 6 Santana should stay with the Twins, have we not all had enough of these rumors and proposed trades being put forth by all the fans who want Johan on their team without giving up anything of value?
Trevor posted on Thursday, Dec 27, 2007 12:41 pm ESTReport Abuse
* 7 Yeah I agree- blowing smoke- he'll get moved. These lame duck teams that get the biggest chunk of revenue sharing need to stop their habitual pocketing of the money. Hey give the Royals credit for taking their share and at least signing every mediocre free agent out there. I'm a Yankees fan but I love the idea of the smaller-market clubs competing- I'm a fan of the game first/always
CDMV posted on Thursday, Dec 27, 2007 12:43 pm ESTReport Abuse
* 8 If this is true it's the best for all teams involved. Twins keep one of the best pitchers in the game, the Yankees keep their best prospects, and who cares about the Sux.
william posted on Thursday, Dec 27, 2007 12:45 pm ESTReport Abuse
* 9 This is silly, why are they botherering with this. It's a forgone conclusion he will be moved.
Qbass187 posted on Thursday, Dec 27, 2007 12:48 pm ESTReport Abuse
* 10 CDMV,
Well said. If teams took the field without names, numbers or logos on their jerseys I would still watch baseball. The Game will always survive.
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Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:55 pm
After the 2008 season, the Yankees’ pay roll will discard approximately $80 million in contracts. (Pavano $10m, Mussina $11m, Giambi $21m, Abreu $16m, Farnsworth $5.5m, Pettitte $16m)”
——————————————————
That’s 6 players, 5 of whom have to be replaced. If we make the trade, we have to replace Melky also. So after 2008:
$120m payroll
+ $20m+ Santana
+ $10m Arb for Wang and Canp
+ $8m raise ARod and Mo
+ $10m CF
No we have 2 starters, 1 BP guy, 1 DH, 1 RF to replace.
+ $40 for 3, saying we use 2 kids
————————————
Thats about $210m
This is all guesswork because maybe 1 kid works out, or 3.
If our kids are really good, their price will continue to go up. Maybe we spend more then $40m on 2 starters and a DH.
The Yankees will probably always be over the cap until 5 years from now IF the farm really pulls through.
Santana’s money and length of contract ARE an issue.
——————————————————
That’s 6 players, 5 of whom have to be replaced. If we make the trade, we have to replace Melky also. So after 2008:
$120m payroll
+ $20m+ Santana
+ $10m Arb for Wang and Canp
+ $8m raise ARod and Mo
+ $10m CF
No we have 2 starters, 1 BP guy, 1 DH, 1 RF to replace.
+ $40 for 3, saying we use 2 kids
————————————
Thats about $210m
This is all guesswork because maybe 1 kid works out, or 3.
If our kids are really good, their price will continue to go up. Maybe we spend more then $40m on 2 starters and a DH.
The Yankees will probably always be over the cap until 5 years from now IF the farm really pulls through.
Santana’s money and length of contract ARE an issue.
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Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:56 pm
# Kill-Schill(ing) December 27th, 2007 at 4:47 pm
Absolutely, Drive 4-5, if I forget before the season starts, remind me.
I’m sure I’ll be posting here right through Spring Training and on into 2008.
And we have Pete to thank for founding this forum and turning it into the broadest, most inclusive medium I’ve ever witnessed for Yankees fans’ participate in.
I doubt we have much influence one way or the other. But it’s therapeutic to have a place to vent, even if only fellow fans, and Pete himself, listen and respond.
# DRU December 27th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
flea…I didnt read your +1 +.5 gibberish, but many of my posts did respond to what you said.
The problem with your post is that you did not consider any seasons after 08, or that the Sox would need to give up Lester if they got Johan On top of that, you are only ranking the pitchers today. Would you have rated Beckett an Ace after last season?
16-11…204in…158K…5.01 ERA…1.295 WHIP
You see things do change year to year. Maybe Josh could go back to leading the league in HR’s in 08 like he did in 06? Maybe Joba or Phil or IPK break out like Josh did when he was 23 ( 142in…152K…3.04 EWRA ) did anyone think he was going to put up those numbers i nthe 02 season when he finished with a 4.10 ERA?
Your argument is flawed and obviously didnt read any of the posts following it since they answered most of your questions.
Such as…I would not mind if Johan went to the Sox. Sure they would be the “favorites” in 08, but that guarantees them nothing. Just like it didnt guarantee the Yanks anything when they picked up Randy Johnson, who won the CY young the previous season. Or Jason Giambi, who won the MVP 2 seasons before we picked him up. How many times were the Yanks the favorites over the past 7 years only to fail? How about every single year we were ranked #1, and got 0 WS rings.
The Sox would be the favorites in 08, but the Yanks would get better and better each season after as the young guns build up endurance and arm strength. Plus adding a Teixeria and CC Sabathia with the extra money saved is another factor. There were too many holes in your statement to crown yourself “as usual I am right!”. Get off your high horse and join the rest of us peasants on planet Earth my friend
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Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:59 pm
Keep Hughes….
Hope that Santana stays in MN for the year. Red Sox and Yankees rather bid on Santana in the open market where they don’t have to give up any prospects (but may pay a little more thru the nose). But for the Yankees, there are people coming off the books after the season.
Rotation in 2009:
Santana
Wang
Hughes
Chamberlain
Kennedy
with the possibility that the Yankees can sign CC from the Indians– tho getting both is a pipe dream— but with optimism of Rebecca– this is possible
Santana
Wang
Sabathia
Hughes
Chamberlain
(Kennedy in long relief)
Hope that Santana stays in MN for the year. Red Sox and Yankees rather bid on Santana in the open market where they don’t have to give up any prospects (but may pay a little more thru the nose). But for the Yankees, there are people coming off the books after the season.
Rotation in 2009:
Santana
Wang
Hughes
Chamberlain
Kennedy
with the possibility that the Yankees can sign CC from the Indians– tho getting both is a pipe dream— but with optimism of Rebecca– this is possible
Santana
Wang
Sabathia
Hughes
Chamberlain
(Kennedy in long relief)
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Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:32 pm
Yea I agree. Except I like Masterson more than Marquez. Masterson's groundball rate is absurd.
That's ok, but take a look at Masterson's delivery:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMrbcYi4aes
Now let me ask you something, how many successful ML starters throw from a low 3/4's arm slot?... not many...
I think he's better suited for the bullpen.
EDIT: I love his sinker though.
That's ok, but take a look at Masterson's delivery:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMrbcYi4aes
Now let me ask you something, how many successful ML starters throw from a low 3/4's arm slot?... not many...
I think he's better suited for the bullpen.
EDIT: I love his sinker though.
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Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:00 am
http://boards.espn.go.com/boards/mb/mb?sport=mlb&id=bos&tid=2094281&tsn=41
Sox Fan says
Can someone explain why Hughes is better than Lester? I mean just look at what each player has done in the Show so far in their career. I don't care about your AAA stats or big expectations. Lester pwns Hughes!!
Sox Fan says
Can someone explain why Hughes is better than Lester? I mean just look at what each player has done in the Show so far in their career. I don't care about your AAA stats or big expectations. Lester pwns Hughes!!
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Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:04 am
I Was wondering if anyone else has heard anything about Hal handling the purse strings? See highlighted third paragraph. Sherman is usually late on his info and all this could be different by now, but just wanted to see if anyone had heard anything of this nature.
I know Joel Sherman is questionable more on the fact that he usually has his information late ... the thing I am wondering about is if it is really Hal that is handling the finances as opposed to Hank?? Before reading this I always had the feeling that Hank was handling most everything ... I guess Hal isn't just window dressing after all if this is true.
Joel Sherman- BOSTON'S MARKET
BOSOX STILL LEAD IN JOHAN RACE
I know Joel Sherman is questionable more on the fact that he usually has his information late ... the thing I am wondering about is if it is really Hal that is handling the finances as opposed to Hank?? Before reading this I always had the feeling that Hank was handling most everything ... I guess Hal isn't just window dressing after all if this is true.
Joel Sherman- BOSTON'S MARKET
BOSOX STILL LEAD IN JOHAN RACE
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12282007/sports/bostons_market_780521.htm
It looks like the MFR up north will get yet another ace for close to nothing like giving Twins Coco Stinkin Crisp..
December 28, 2007 -- JOHAN Santana remains available. The New York teams remain interested. Yet, according to multiple executives spoken to yesterday, the Red Sox remain the strong favorite to obtain the star lefty if - and probably more likely, when - he is traded in the new year.
The Yankees, if anything, have become more entrenched in their unwillingness to pay the price both in prospects (notably Phil Hughes) and dollars (an extension in the six-year, $130 million range). Since the Winter Meetings concluded, the Yanks have not seriously discussed players with the Twins.
Hank Steinbrenner has continued to suggest the Yanks are in play for Santana, and a sense has percolated of a tug-of-war between Steinbrenner's willingness to surrender top youngsters and GM Brian Cashman's reluctance. But multiple sources say the media has focused on the wrong son of George Steinbrenner. These sources say Hal Steinbrenner is most responsible for dictating financial policy and does not want to spend the dollars in salary and luxury tax (nearly $30 million annually) necessary for Santana.
Unless that sentiment changes, the Yanks are unlikely to relent to a four-player package that would be fronted by Hughes and Melky Cabrera.
For the Mets to land Santana, the Twins would have to change the strategy they have been employing. Minnesota has requested at least two players who would be ready to play in the majors now. They would get that from the Yanks in Hughes and Cabrera. In the Red Sox's most commonly cited offer, Jon Lester and Coco Crisp would play now, and Minnesota even believes prospect Jed Lowrie potentially could start at second base to begin the 2008 campaign.
However, by removing Jose Reyes from the conversation, the Mets lack such certifiable players, which is why Minnesota has considered the Mets behind in these negotiations. The Twins like Carlos Gomez and Mike Pelfrey, but are uncertain if they are ready for the majors and have more doubts in the duo's overall likelihood to become stars than they do in Hughes or Lester.
There has been some speculation that Arizona's deal of six prospects for ace Dan Haren could serve as a roadmap for the Mets in pursuing Santana, that they could win the bidding by offering quantity. But there are some major differences in the Santana talks. Oakland's haul for Haren does not include an obvious, major league-ready player, and Minnesota has yet to show it would accept a number of prospects in lieu of players ready for the majors.
And Arizona has among the majors' deepest farm systems and a major league roster heavy in young, inexpensive cornerstones. Therefore, the Diamondbacks could more comfortably surrender such a voluminous package. If the Mets were forced to deal most of their best close-to-major league-ready crop from among Pelfrey, Gomez, Fernando Martinez, Phil Humber and Kevin Mulvey, their safety net for the rest of the season and the near future would be devastated, especially since their roster is built around so many thirtysomethings.
Thus, for the Mets to land Santana, they would probably need these stars to align: a) The Twins feel they must deal their ace before spring training and, thus, take the best package available some time in the next six weeks; b) The Mets assemble a package that severely depletes their system, the Twins decide to accept volume as the key to the deal and neither the Red Sox nor the Yankees alter their offers.
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Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:14 am
I guess Hal isn't just window dressing after all if this is true.
It was outlined from the beginning (by the media) that Hank would be more involved with baseball while Hal would be more involved with the business side with a special emphasis on the new Stadium contruction.
I'm getting an increasing feeling that the Santana deal might not happen but I somehow doubt he's going to Boston. Of course, if a package could be built around Kennedy we might have something but nothing seems to be able to get the Twins to budge. They should have grabbed Hughes while they had a chance. Perhaps now they'll have to watch him become a superstar in pinstripes while they settle for a lesser package (Lester, Crisp...?) or two draft picks. Their loss and I really mean that.
I understand Mo', Hank is the front guy just like George was and George had guys who worked behind teh scenes handling business, this I believe to be the case here. But then again this is Shermans column and do you really care?....LOL! Big business always have those who work behind the scenes that handle most of the business.
this is just another example of how this story has become really stupid, ten hours ago one guy writes that the twins want to resign him then some guy say the yanks could get him for less then before, then the red sox are in the lead, and the yankees are not getting him, this whole thing has got annoying, it makes me miss the daysa where cashman snuck in and stole arod with no one knowing, that deal took about 15 minutes. And you know what they say, the deals that get dragged out are the ones that never get done
"joel sherman is an admitted red sox fan-so consider the source"
The Post has a Red Sox fan covering the Yankees? Is this really true?
There are so many board debates on whether the Yankees really care about the $$$ and the luxury tax ... one would have to believe that they care to some degree. Personally I think they are holding off and hoping that Santana will stay with the Twins ... they have a lot of money coming off the books in 2009 ... even though they are going to have to replace those players also who are coming off the books. Deep down I believe this deal will get done for Santana, but the Yankees are going to wait until the last moment when they know for sure that they have no choice because the Twins will not keep him.
It was outlined from the beginning (by the media) that Hank would be more involved with baseball while Hal would be more involved with the business side with a special emphasis on the new Stadium contruction.
I'm getting an increasing feeling that the Santana deal might not happen but I somehow doubt he's going to Boston. Of course, if a package could be built around Kennedy we might have something but nothing seems to be able to get the Twins to budge. They should have grabbed Hughes while they had a chance. Perhaps now they'll have to watch him become a superstar in pinstripes while they settle for a lesser package (Lester, Crisp...?) or two draft picks. Their loss and I really mean that.
I understand Mo', Hank is the front guy just like George was and George had guys who worked behind teh scenes handling business, this I believe to be the case here. But then again this is Shermans column and do you really care?....LOL! Big business always have those who work behind the scenes that handle most of the business.
this is just another example of how this story has become really stupid, ten hours ago one guy writes that the twins want to resign him then some guy say the yanks could get him for less then before, then the red sox are in the lead, and the yankees are not getting him, this whole thing has got annoying, it makes me miss the daysa where cashman snuck in and stole arod with no one knowing, that deal took about 15 minutes. And you know what they say, the deals that get dragged out are the ones that never get done
"joel sherman is an admitted red sox fan-so consider the source"
The Post has a Red Sox fan covering the Yankees? Is this really true?
There are so many board debates on whether the Yankees really care about the $$$ and the luxury tax ... one would have to believe that they care to some degree. Personally I think they are holding off and hoping that Santana will stay with the Twins ... they have a lot of money coming off the books in 2009 ... even though they are going to have to replace those players also who are coming off the books. Deep down I believe this deal will get done for Santana, but the Yankees are going to wait until the last moment when they know for sure that they have no choice because the Twins will not keep him.
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Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:14 am
The New York Times owns the Boston Globe and owns 17% of New England Sports Ventures, the partnership that owns the Red Sox, Fenway Park, and 80 percent of the New England Sports Network, the cable channel that broadcasts most of the team's games. (The Times Co. also owns the Worcester Telegram & Gazette and a 49 percent share of the Metro newspaper.)
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According to the New York Post, the Red Sox remain "the
RedMagma Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:18 am
Johan Santana-S-Twins Dec. 28 - 9:28 am et
http://rotoworld.com/content/home_MLB.aspx
According to the New York Post, the Red Sox remain "the strong favorite" to acquire Johan Santana.
The newspaper speculates that both "New York teams remain interested," but the Yankees "have become more entrenched in their unwillingness to pay the price" that includes Phil Hughes and a huge contract extension. The Yankees reportedly "have not seriously discussed players with the Twins" since the winter meetings.
Source: New York Post
http://rotoworld.com/content/home_MLB.aspx
According to the New York Post, the Red Sox remain "the strong favorite" to acquire Johan Santana.
The newspaper speculates that both "New York teams remain interested," but the Yankees "have become more entrenched in their unwillingness to pay the price" that includes Phil Hughes and a huge contract extension. The Yankees reportedly "have not seriously discussed players with the Twins" since the winter meetings.
Source: New York Post
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Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:20 am
QUOTE(Barbara @ Dec 26 2007, 10:36 PM) *
The Minneapolis Star Tribune believes that Kei Igawa's name has come up ...
"Came up" like bad sushi! rolling.gif
Seriously, SSS and everything, I should think Igawa's presence in a deal would decrease the value of the deal, thus making the Yankees have to include more value from a prospects standpoint. I can see a Hughes/Kennedy/Melky/Igawa kind of thing, just to clear the Yankees of that albatross of a contract.
The Minneapolis Star Tribune believes that Kei Igawa's name has come up ...
"Came up" like bad sushi! rolling.gif
Seriously, SSS and everything, I should think Igawa's presence in a deal would decrease the value of the deal, thus making the Yankees have to include more value from a prospects standpoint. I can see a Hughes/Kennedy/Melky/Igawa kind of thing, just to clear the Yankees of that albatross of a contract.
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Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:21 am
There's another post on the main thread today that's from the NYPost , "JOHAN Santana remains available. The New York teams remain interested. Yet, according to multiple executives spoken to yesterday, the Red Sox remain the strong favorite to obtain the star lefty if - and probably more likely, when - he is traded in the new year."
Then, according to Boston Dirtdogs there's speculation from ESPN's Jayson Stark that "the Twins are telling teams that they're willing to hold on to Johan Santana into spring training as they attempt to get the package of players they want."
From Minnesota, the Star Tribune hasn't updated their December 19th article that: "The Twins remain patient in trying to make the right deal, and still could open the season with Santana."
So it seems the speculation goes on and on, with everyone grabbing onto whatever tidbits will make them hopeful or point in some direction. So, in terms of Cano being included in the Yanks package, it seems like one more piece of speculation that can send us reeling. Maybe they honestly don't want to risk his injuries.
Then, according to Boston Dirtdogs there's speculation from ESPN's Jayson Stark that "the Twins are telling teams that they're willing to hold on to Johan Santana into spring training as they attempt to get the package of players they want."
From Minnesota, the Star Tribune hasn't updated their December 19th article that: "The Twins remain patient in trying to make the right deal, and still could open the season with Santana."
So it seems the speculation goes on and on, with everyone grabbing onto whatever tidbits will make them hopeful or point in some direction. So, in terms of Cano being included in the Yanks package, it seems like one more piece of speculation that can send us reeling. Maybe they honestly don't want to risk his injuries.
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Re: Yankees - Santana
RedMagma Fri Dec 28, 2007 9:24 am
From Sosh Boards
Some news here and there.
Seamus O' Toole says
If I was a Twins fan, I would be storming the GM's office with ax's, pitchforks & maces referring to Yankees offering Igawa in deal for Johan. For God sakes The Redsox are offering Coco Stinkin Crisp not Buccholz or Ellsbury.
BoredViewer
If Igawa's name "came up," it had to be along the lines of the Twins saying - "we'll take Igawa's contract off your hands if you throw in Joba." In no place other than NYY fan dreams is Igawa desire
Buckner Boots
Came up" like bad sushi! rolling
Seriously, SSS and everything, I should think Igawa's presence in a deal would decrease the value of the deal, thus making the Yankees have to include more value from a prospects standpoint. I can see a Hughes/Kennedy/Melky/Igawa kind of thing, just to clear the Yankees of that albatross of a contract.
Some news here and there.
http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/playerbreakingnews.asp?sport=MLB&id=2993&line=227856&spln=1
Twins, Yanks talk Igawa in Santana deal
The Minneapolis Star Tribune believes that Kei Igawa's name has come up in some discussions between the Twins and Yankees regarding Johan Santana.
Seamus O' Toole says
If I was a Twins fan, I would be storming the GM's office with ax's, pitchforks & maces referring to Yankees offering Igawa in deal for Johan. For God sakes The Redsox are offering Coco Stinkin Crisp not Buccholz or Ellsbury.
BoredViewer
If Igawa's name "came up," it had to be along the lines of the Twins saying - "we'll take Igawa's contract off your hands if you throw in Joba." In no place other than NYY fan dreams is Igawa desire
Buckner Boots
Came up" like bad sushi! rolling
Seriously, SSS and everything, I should think Igawa's presence in a deal would decrease the value of the deal, thus making the Yankees have to include more value from a prospects standpoint. I can see a Hughes/Kennedy/Melky/Igawa kind of thing, just to clear the Yankees of that albatross of a contract.
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